Help talk:IPA/Punjabi

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There is a move discussion in progress on Help talk:IPA which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 16:18, 15 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The recent changes for this IPA Help Page have made it too similar to Help:IPA/Hindi and Urdu in my opinion because while Punjabi may share a few similarities, it is still a distinct language from both Hindi and Urdu. The reasons why I say this is because the examples given here for the Gurmukhi/Shahmukhi scripts are similar with the ones in Help:IPA/Hindi and Urdu, there two footnotes here which are similar with one saying "/ɾ/ can surface as a trill [r] in word-initial and syllable-final positions. Geminate /ɾː/ is always a trill." and another one saying "/iː, ɪ/ and /uː, ʊ/ are neutralised to [i, u] at the end of a word." exactly the same as the other IPA page not to mention Punjabi phonology does not even mention these two notes or state that these are features of Punjabi. And along with these issues, the transcriptions for tone got removed (which I have now readded) and even the Suprasegmentals table has become too similar with the one in Help:IPA/Hindi and Urdu, especially with the IPA example of "[ˈdeːɦli]" for stress (which in any case got removed from Help:IPA/Hindi and Urdu) and "[ˈʊtːəɾ pɾəˈdeːʃ]" for the doubled consonants.

Of course its my opinion but this IPA Help Page seemed so much better before all these changes were made (the only improvement I can say these recent changes have made is the addition of ISO which wasn't in this page previously). I think if these recent changes are to stay (I think Taimoorahmed11 did most of these recent changes), it would be good if some of these examples here are changed so that it is not too similar to Help:IPA/Hindi and Urdu (at least with examples more specific to Punjabi rather than Hindi/Urdu) and make sure the detail in those two footnotes are referenced in Punjabi phonology (with sources if possible) if they are really features of Punjabi (otherwise I think they should be removed from here or replaced with something more relevant to Punjabi). I would be very grateful if anyone comments on this (especially if you are a Punjabi speaker), many thanks. Broman178 (talk) 17:35, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Broman178:. Hi Broman. I hope you're well, especially during these times. You are indeed correct that the page looks very similar to the Hindustani IPA page (and even still has Devanagari Terms for "Gurmukhi" examples) and the reason for this is that I ported over that page to here, since the Punjabi IPA page was a mess prior to this. I have yet to finish editing this page but have been pretty occupied over the last couple of weeks. In regards to the phonology of the Punjabi Language, some of the consonants that you have mentioned (like the trilled R) - I have purposely left in because prolonged r sounds in many South Asian languages end up as Trilled R. I have yet to complete the vowels table.

I had actually been working on this page for a long time, but It ended up being messy and since the Hindustani IPA page was revamped, I also decided to revamp this page. You are more than welcome to work on this page :)

P.s, please ping me via {{ping|Taimoorahmed11}}, else I might not be aware of any replies

>> Taimoor Ahmed^{(Send a Message?)} 03:58, 13 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Taimoorahmed11:. I'm well thanks, and thank you for the reply. I look forward to see your finished changes and I hope they are good although I would suggest that if you want to keep the footnotes, please do mention the information in them in the Phonology section in the Punjabi language article as mentioning them here alone could confuse readers as those notes aren't mentioned there (especially for the trill and the vowel shortening in word-final position). Broman178 (talk) 11:42, 13 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Anupam. Hope you're your doing okay.

You reverted my changes to the last revision. I'm hoping you could discuss your objections here? نعم البدل (talk) 15:59, 20 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Salaam User:ن��م البدل and thank you for starting this discussion. The reason that I reverted your changes is because the edits to the 'marginal consonants' section were not correct. These sounds do not vary across the border (Lahore and Amritsar are 50 kilometres apart), though people from rural areas might not be able to pronounce them correctly. When nuqtas are used, they are done to render a specific sound, usually from a loanword with origins in Persian or Arabic. For example, x is represented by ਖ਼, the Gurmukhi equivalent to خ. In your table, you rendered ਖ਼ as representing kʰ, which is inaccurate; that is represented by ਖ (without the nuqta). This video would help in seeing how certain words are pronounced in Punjabi rendered in the Gurmukhi script; you will note the Gurmukhi and Shahmukhi equivalents listed at the end of the video, which support the current version of the article, rather than the changes that you implemented. The IPA equivalents are provided there as well. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam^Talk 16:16, 20 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Anupam: Apologies and wasalam! I didn't see your reply. In regards to your revision, the substitutions aren't just in colloquial speech though? Or what would you consider formal speech? An official who speaks Punjabi natively and holds office may just as well be substituting those sounds? نعم البدل (talk) 17:07, 9 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I would say that in the media, when the word "hazar" is pronounced, it will usually be ਹਾਜ਼ਰ, whereas in a village, such as Dhadday, rural farmers might pronounce it as ਹਾਜਰ. The level of education and location (rural versus urban) will likely influence the use of those sounds, but as the video I shared indicates, they are definitely used and a part of the Punjabi langauge as spoken in India. Kind regards, Anupam^Talk 12:16, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Anupam: Unfortunately, the video you shared a while back has been privated, so I wasn't able to watch it. However, I have been watching Punjabi news channels and other Punjabi videos these days, and I can agree that /z/ gets pronounced more often than being substituted, but the rest of borrowed sounds like /ɣ/, and /x/, do normally get substituted. نعم البدل (talk) 00:42, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

When I get time, I'll try finding another video, but the same is the case with other sounds. For example the word for news "khabren" will be pronounced as ਖ਼ਬਰੇਨ by many of the media personnel, while in rural areas, the first consonant will be pronounced improperly. I hope this helps, Anupam^Talk 09:30, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

With respect, I'm saying that it is pronounced, but more often than not, it isn't. For instance News18 Punjab uploaded this video a mere two hours from when I watched, and in the first 5 seconds, the anchor pronounces 'news' as /kʰə.bəɾ/. If you have time and watch their livestream, you'll notice it a lot more. نعم البدل (talk) 17:50, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your reply User:نعم البدل. I apologize that I have not had the time to find another video but appreciate that you shared one of your own. I would be fine, for now, if you simply removed the word "colloquial" from the footnote, but left the rest of the sentence intact. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam^Talk 00:42, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi نعم البدل, I mentioned some of my reasons for making the changes in my edit comment. I will further explain:

I am kind of inclined to agree with the above Broman discussion that the older version was more practical for non-speakers, which is who this page ought to be geared to, and should be the base of the article.

I'm not seeing the point of the random vocab. Not only does it not add any understanding to pronunciation, but it can easily give the impression to laymen that the English approximations correspond with them in meaning. It only serves to confuse not clarify imo.

I also don't see why the page needs to be modeled so closely on the Hindustani IPA page, for example Punjabi has specific considerations like tonality and super-short vowels that Hindustani doesn't. So the format ought to diverge anyway from that of Hindustani, which has a more straightforward phonology.

There are also over a dozen footnotes. Such a small page seems like more footnote than article. At that point we ought to integrate the notes into the article proper, and retain only the useful/solid notes, relevant to phonetics and not phonotactics etc. As I stated several of them are a better fit in a phonology section of another article, if they belong at all.

Hence the reasons for my edit. Thoughts? Sapedder (talk) 03:51, 28 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging @نعم البدل: It's been a while, if the requested discussion isn't forthcoming I will go ahead and instate my edit presently. Sapedder (talk) 04:12, 26 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Sapedder: Almost all South Asian IPA page examples contain full words and not simply letters. This isn't unique to Hindi/Urdu IPA pages. See Nepali, Bengali, Tamil etc. The issue with basing it on letters is that the page becomes incredibly complex when you eventually add the different letters in both Gurmukhi and Shahmukhi. I believe this[1] is the diff that is being referred to above. The page becomes less pleasing and more perplexing.

We already mention the different tones in Punjabi in the suprasegmentals section and the notes are only for the marginal consonants sections, which involved multiple users. نعم البدل (talk) 11:46, 26 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@نعم البدل: Right, but I'm saying we don't have to adhere to that. Punjabi has considerations that other languages don't. The aspect of tonality I was referring to was how the letters themselves change pronunciation based on their position in the word (voiced/unvoiced, not just the tones themselves, that would be easy to explain). I would say that this aspect is unique to Punjabi and inherently perplexing to laypeople anyway, but it has to be approached in some way, so that users unfamiliar with the language can get an idea of when to expect these changes. Plus we're dealing in two scripts. Any useful Punjabi IPA page is not going to be simple imo, I would favor utility over aesthetics in this case.

The letters should be the focus here, not the sample words. The Bengali page does show individual letters, as far as I can tell. And as a rank layperson in regards to anything Tamil-related that IPA page makes my point imo, it's of little help to anyone who can't read full Tamil words. Letters are easier units of info for laypeople.

The old version of this page you linked to does have columns for both letters and sample words. Maybe we can merge the two versions (mine and current) to create something similar here, if the sample words must be kept (I'm open to accommodating them, even if I'm still not really seeing their value).

I still think that any notes of value can and should be better integrated into the page itself, and notes can benefit more than just the marginal consonants here. Sapedder (talk) 04:40, 27 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Sapedder:

• Punjabi has considerations that other languages don't. The aspect of tonality I was referring to was how the letters themselves change pronunciation based on their position in the word (voiced/unvoiced, not just the tones themselves, that would be easy to explain). – Yes but this article is mainly regarding how Punjabi is transcribed into IPA, we're not really discussing Punjabi Phonology in depth - which is something that can be covered at Punjabi language, if not already. I don't see how that's relevant here.

The third sentence of the article is

See Punjabi phonology, Gurmukhi, and Shahmukhi for a more thorough discussion of the sounds of Punjabi.

• Plus we're dealing in two scripts. Any useful Punjabi IPA page is not going to be simple imo, I would favor utility over aesthetics in this case. – Right, but you do need to take asthetics into account, because IPA is something that's all over Wikipedia and needs to be readable/understand by a layman. Anyone who is actually attempting to learn more about Punjabi phonology will likely be more interested in other articles. Pronunciation key articles have never really been comprehensive, and it's for a good reason.
• The Bengali page does show individual letters, as far as I can tell – It also includes examples and Bengali only has one script to deal with. Nevertheless, I don't it's a good idea to include each individual letter, because it will inevitably lead to pointless discussions, such as which letters to include and to ignore; the variants like nuqta and 'ta; the pronunciation of the individual letters - various dialects, accents and whatnot. There is a reason why we have such huge notes for the marginal consonants.

What I've also noticed is that your edit is actually more leniant towards the Gurmukhi script, among other issues. It's much easier to just mention the sounds that are included in the Punjabi language and give examples of them. نعم البدل (talk) 22:32, 27 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@نعم البدل: The reason it is important to note specific letters in Punjabi's case is to make clear which position the letter is in triggers which expected pronunciation, and why exactly some letters' IPA transcriptions jump around (e.g. when is jh actually c, or j, etc, in case users try to correct it or use IPA themselves). I'm not seeing how individual letters would trigger more confusion than words.

Using that Tamil example I mentioned, I would bet that the random vocabulary written in scripts we don't understand is not very useful to either of us as laymen, with the sample words being particularly not useful. I'm not seeing how adding a multi-purpose column for notes unduly disrupts aesthetics. It would offer more utility for lay readers than unexplained words they can't read or make sense of; as I mentioned earlier the current page seems more confusing to laypeople (e.g. users may assume some correlation between the sample words and the approximations, that būhā means butter, or dittā means duck, etc. This goes for the Nepali page too I suppose).

Which letters are left to debate for inclusion? I think all letters are already included, including the nuqta letters. Also we are presumably dealing with the pronunciation of the standard variety, which most dialects conform to imo, unless you are referring to Lahnda registers, the phonologies of which diverge enough from Standard Punjabi to warrant their own pages. If not, the following seems arbitrary:

• to leave out the arguably more native implosives and voiced aspirates that they have, while including gutterals that Standard Punjabi (which has only been standardized in Eastern Punjab as far as I know, would this be the leniency you are referring to?), even as spoken in official capacities, almost never pronounces, even less so as time goes on;
• that the Shahmukhi words don't include word examples with emphatic letters like t̤oe and ṣwād for alternate characters for t and s respectively, further limiting the usefulness of a word-centric approach. This non-1:1 correspondence can be simply clarified in a page that specifies letters instead.

As I said, any useful solution will have some complication to be managed; I think mine offers a large increase in clarity in exchange for a minimal increase in complication.

Speaking of which, I actually think the page as it stands conforms too much to a Hindustani/Urdu pronunciation, which is far from universal and of recent origin (this is per Bashir and Conners as well as Shackle). As I mentioned, nativized pronunciations are commonly used even for letters marked with nuqtas in writing. Why they are considered marginal should be noted. The inclusion of /q/ and /ʒ/ are particularly dubious to me, these sounds don't exist in any natural speech. ਕ਼ is an unofficial letter for a reason and there is no letter ਝ਼. This would be another issue among others that I would have, though secondary.

This is a bit tangential, but I notice that that Arabic IPA and certain sub-dialects also eschew using sample words in their IPA pages, while other subdialects' IPA pages do use them. Similarly, there is no set standard that the Indo-Aryan cluster of IPA pages has to conform to either, or some obligation to use sample words. Sapedder (talk) 04:12, 2 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]