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The article lists Assembler(E) and Assembler(F) separately, but nothing for FORTRAN or COBOL. Weren't there COBOL(E) and COBOL(F), FORTRAN(E),and FORTRAN(G)? I don't believe there ever was a FORTRAN(F). Of course PL/I is PL/I(F). What about RPG? It seems reasonable to list either all or none. Peter Flass (talk) 03:23, 20 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

FORTRAN(G) and FORTRAN(H), I think. FORTRAN(G) was a Digitek compiler; I think FORTRAN(H) was an IBM-developed compiler written mostly in FORTRAN with some special extensions, with a special command-line option to the FORTRAN(H) compiler to turn on the extensions (documented in an appendix or a PLM or something such as that; as I remember, it referred to it as an option for "compiling the compiler"). Guy Harris (talk) 04:17, 20 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
OK, a little bit of Teh Google (for "RPG OS/360", which first found information about role-playing games on the Xbox 360) found some information on compilers that came with MVT 21.8f; they include ALGOL(F), an ANSI COBOL with no memory-requirement letter, FORTRAN(G), FORTRAN(H), PL/I(F), and RPC with no memory-requirement letter.
Digging into Uncle Al's bitsavers.org found FORTRAN manuals listing FORTRAN(E), FORTRAN(G), and FORTRAN(H). Guy Harris (talk) 04:30, 20 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
And the PLM for FORTRAN H, as mentioned above; see Appendix J, starting at page 235. The PARM= option was XL, and the extensions were data structures and pointers to them, and bitwise-logical operations, shifting operations, and bit-testing-and-setting operations implemented as builtin functions. Guy Harris (talk) 05:57, 20 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I probably have manuals for most of these; I don't recall the design points for ALGOL and RPG.
  • ALGOL 60
  • Assembler (E)
  • Assembler (F)
  • COBOL (E)
  • COBOL (F)
  • COBOL (U); came out fairly late in the game
  • FORTRAN (E)
  • FORTRAN (G)
  • FORTRAN (H)
  • PL/1 (F)
  • Report Program Generator
  • TESTRAN
Later there were program product upgrades:
  • OS/COBOL, 5734-CB1
  • FORTRAN G1
  • FORTRAN H Extended
  • FORTRAN H Extended Enhanced Optimization IUP
  • PL/I Checkout Compiler
  • PL/I Optimizing compiler
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 01:09, 21 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As well as I know, many of those, especially the E level, are for DOS/360. They should, then, be moved to the appropriate article. Gah4 (talk) 22:55, 3 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No, all of them were for OS/360. The DOS compilers were typically smaller, e.g., Assembler D. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 10:34, 29 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

DSECT

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It occurs to me that there is no article for DSECT. I wanted to link to it, but there isn't one. Since I don't know where else to ask, I am putting it here. I believe it deserves its own article. I am not sure how it works in DOS/360 and its successors. It would also be interesting to know of other (non-IBM) assemblers with a similar system. Gah4 (talk) 20:10, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That's a language entity rather than an OS entity; I believe that the article currently mis-titled as Basic assembly language is the correct place for DSECT, as well as USING. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 21:20, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The suggestion was that it should have its own article. I suppose Basic assembly language would be a good place to ask, though. The idea of symbolic representation of offsets into a data structure separate from those with the offsets. It seems that in Data structure they suggest that assemblers don't have such things. As I understand it in B, the predecessor to C, structure offsets are not attached to variables they way they are in C. As with DSECT, you have to know where you are using them. Gah4 (talk) 01:44, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Gah4: The re-titled article IBM Basic assembly language and successors now has some information on USING in §§ Assembler instructions​ and High Level Assembler. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 15:54, 4 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
OK, USING is specific for base-displacement addressing, but DSECT should be more general. I believe DEC assemblers could do something similar, but haven't thought about that for a while. (Now that there isn't a DEC.) If the idea is general enough, it should be enough for its own page, though maybe only an entry point to a page. Gah4 (talk) 03:37, 5 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Documentation of spooling

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DO IT!
The result of the discussion was merge and turn it into a WP:DAB. Y'all seem much more knowledgeable on this, so I'll let you do it. FaviFake (talk) 14:31, 2 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The new article SYSOUT contains a brief description of system output data sets. That material, and information on SYSIN, should be added here and to Attached Support Processor, Houston Automatic Spooling Priority, OS/VS1, OS/VS2 (SVS), Job Entry Subsystem 1 and Job Entry Subsystem. After that the SYSOUT page should be changed to a DAB page distinguishing system output from the conventional ddname SYSOUT -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 15:48, 20 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support, there is very little that can be said about SYSOUT in general. I am old enough to actually know how to write the DD statements. Job Control Language#Data access (DD statement) is actually yet another possible target for the DAB. Викидим (talk) 22:18, 20 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the JCL article is another target for SYSIN and SYSOUT DAB pages.
Support - Is SYSOUT a name, or is it a parameter, e.g. //SYSPRINT DD SYSOUT=*? And, yes, SYSOUT needs to be turned into something else, perhaps a redirect per Викидим's comment. Guy Harris (talk) 22:52, 20 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
SYSOUT is three very different thing, hence suggesting DAB rather than redirect:
  • A type of SPOOL dataset
  • A JCL keyword
  • A name conventionally although infrequently used.
Similarly for SYSIN:
  • A type of SPOOL dataset
  • The DD options * and DATA
  • A name conventionally and frequently used.
There is, however, no SYSIN keyword. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk)
Support, SYSOUT is both a standard ddname for OS utilities and a JCL parameter. I don’t know much about OS output writers, although I’ve written one, so I don’t know if it has any significance for OS pre-JES. I like the idea of redirecting it to Job Control Language and adding some text on SYSIN and SYSOUT there. That article also has some DOS material, so it should mention SYSIPT (I think it is), etc. Support programs for OS/360 and successors also mentions SYSOUT in the context of utilities. Peter Flass (talk) 01:08, 21 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support programs for OS/360 and successors § History/Common JCL has a table of conventional ddnames and their purposes, including SYSIN (sort of like the Un*x/(Open)VMS/Windows standard input), SYSOUT (sort of like the Un*x/(Open)VMS/Windows standard output or standard error), and SYSPRINT (sort of like the Un*x/(Open)VMS/Windows standard output for programs whose main output is readable text). That table may also belong in Job Control Language and, regardless of where that table ends up, perhaps SYSOUT should redirect there (SYSIN already does). The rest of the stuff probably belongs in OS/360 and successors for the general concept (how did OS/360 without HASP handle SYSOUT=xxx output streams?) and in articles of ASP and various subsystems that did spooled output as one or more of their functions (for the details in those OSes). (Not sure what the corresponding SYSxxx names for those would be in DOS/360 and successors.) Guy Harris (talk) 07:03, 21 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
See my citations below for OS/360 without HASP. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 12:56, 21 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
In OS/360 installation, printed and punched output was very important, so the standard output writer WTR was crucial, along with its ASP and HASP equivalents. The MFT[1] and MVT[2] sections of the OS/360 Operator's Reference[3] contain Controlling Input and Output sections that do an adequate job of explaining SYSIN and SYSOUT processing in systems without ASP or HASP. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 12:56, 21 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I've updated SYSIN and SYSOUT to include the DOS spoolers Grasp and POWER. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 14:33, 21 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support merge and leave SYSOUT and SYSIN as redirects; there's not enough for an entire article and seems more appropriate to be integrated into the suggested articles. ButlerBlog (talk) 18:22, 2 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
DAB pages would be more appropriate, since the targets would be different for DOS and OS. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 22:22, 2 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ OpRefOS, pp. MFT-001–MFT-076, Systems With MFT.
  2. ^ OpRefOS, pp. MVT-001–MVT-074, Systems With MVT.
  3. ^ OpRefOS: IBM System/360 Operating System: Operator's Reference - OS Release 21 (PDF). Systems Reference Library. IBM. Retrieved July 21, 2025.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Storage layout.

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The article currently has two simplified storage layout tables for MVS and none for PCP, MFT,[1] MVT,[2] OS/VS1[3] or SVS.[4] Should those tables be added, and should more detailed tables[5] replace the two existing tables? Do they belong here or in separate articles? -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 12:14, 29 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Figure 1. Main Storage Organization" (PDF). IBM System/360 Operating System: MFT Guide - OS Release 21.7 - with TNL GN28-2546 (PDF). Systems Reference Library (Eleventh ed.). IBM. April 16, 1973. p. 21. GC27-6939-10. Retrieved July 29, 2025.
  2. ^ "Figure 7. Areas and Contents of Main Storage" (PDF). IBM System/360 Operating System: MVT Guide - OS Release 21.7 (PDF). Systems Reference Library (Sixth ed.). IBM. August 1974. p. 29. GC28-6720-5. Retrieved July 29, 2025.
  3. ^ "Figure 90.10,.1. Virtual storage organization in OS/VSl" (PDF). OS/Virtual Storage 1 - Features Supplement - Release 6 (PDF). Systems (Fourth ed.). IBM. January 1977. p. 10. GC20-1752-3. Retrieved July 29, 2025.
  4. ^ "Figure 100.10.1 Virtual storage organization in OS/VS2 Release 1" (PDF). OS/Virtual Storage 2 Single Virtual Storage (SVS) - Features Supplement - Release 1.7 (PDF). Systems (Second ed.). IBM. September 13, 1976. p. 7. GC28-6720-5. Retrieved July 29, 2025.
  5. ^ "Figure 11. Virtual Storage Layout" (PDF). Introduction to OS/VS2 Release 2 (PDF). Systems (Second ed.). IBM. March 1973. p. 39. GC28-0661-1. Retrieved July 29, 2025.

Suggested Job Management section

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After thinking about where to add SYSIN and SYSOUT sections, I decided to write a Job Management section that describes the creation execution and structure of job-like units of work. Tentatively, I'm thinking of

  1. Input streams
  2. Structure of a job
  3. Job queue and SPOOL
    1. OS/360 and SVS
    2. OS/VS1
    3. MVS
  4. SYSIN
  5. SYSOUT
  6. Job-like work
    1. APPC
    2. Master Scheduler
    3. MOUNT
    4. OMVS
    5. START

with {{main|Job Entry Subsystem 2/3}}. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 14:31, 4 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Influence of IBSYS et al

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I've come across an e-mail from Fred Brooks mentioning the influence of IBSYS, 7040-PR-150 and 1410-PR-155 on OS/360 and related systems. Would it be reasonable to cite it? -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 20:21, 14 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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