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November 24

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Is it true that if Miller inversion is easy, then the Weil pairing inversion is easy on BN curves?

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I was given the following explaination with some part of it obviously wrong but is it completely false?

~2025-35962-07 (talk) 09:13, 24 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Why would you expect anything but garbage to come out of ChatGPT? ~2025-31850-11 (talk) 11:59, 24 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Because some actual experts suggested a similar thing https://crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/117412/can-this-algorithm-about-pairing-inversion-work-in-case-of-pairings-that-don-t-u#comment247437_117430?
Also the advandced model in addition to answer correctly on some mathematical terms did quoted papers on this discussion that achieve bilinear pairings wihtout final exponentiation but on hyperelliptic curves.
The quailty improved from garbage to half truths. ~2025-35962-07 (talk) 19:56, 24 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
A mathematical argument with half-truths is garbage. ~2025-31850-11 (talk) 11:14, 25 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Since LLMs generate texts that statistically resemble human-produced texts, one should expect, given an LLM-generated text, to find human-produced texts that statistically resemble it The fact that a text statistically resembles human-produced accurate texts does not make it particularly more likely that it is accurate, unless there are many of such human texts, which, moreover, use similar wordings. This is the case if you ask for the capital of New Caledonia, or how to say "Merry Christmas" in Polish. I doubt that it is the case for your conjectured implication.  ​‑‑Lambiam 21:26, 25 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]

November 25

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Euler necklaces

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I wrote a program to find Euler circuits on the complete directed graph of n vertices. Now I want to eliminate isomorphisms. Such a circuit is a kind of bracelet (where bead colors represent vertices of the graph), and there probably exist algorithms to detect isomorphism between bracelets. I wonder whether it would be easier to generate all bracelets (of n-1 beads of each of n colors) and filter the list for the desired quality of including all sequences of two colors. —Tamfang (talk) 02:47, 25 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Doesn’t sound easier; why would you want to enlarge your set of objects to classify? ~2025-31850-11 (talk) 11:23, 25 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It could save time if the bracelet-generating algo inherently excludes isomorphs, somehow. —Tamfang (talk) 00:36, 26 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
There exist, rather obviously, algorithms to detect that two Euler circuits on a given complete digraph are isomorphic (enumerate all automorphisms of the digraph), so I assume the purpose is to find a faster method.
To enumerate the Euler circuits one would use a depth-first algorithm to search the tree of partial Euler paths, backtracking when no Eulerian continuation is open while the cycle is not yet complete. (The problem can also be viewed as finding Hamiltonian circuits in a directed graph whose nodes are formed by edges of the original graph and whose edges are the pairs of the form and then the search tree is a spanning tree of the new graph.) In enumerating the bracelets, one would, I presume, use a functionally equivalent algorithm, not waiting with filtering till completion of a bracelet, but not attempting to extend a partial bracelet ...AB...A with another B and backtracking when no lawful continuation is possible. So I think there is no gain. And in either case you still have to test for isomorphism.  ​‑‑Lambiam 21:10, 25 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It's not merely n! but 2n(n-1)n!, because the path can begin anywhere and I want to consider reversal equivalent. (My program reduces by n!, by requiring that the vertices' first appearances be in order.) —Tamfang (talk) 04:53, 28 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Tamfang: May I check my understanding of the setting of your problem? Concretely, I suppose that here a "complete directed graph" refers to a tournament on a complete graph. Is that correct?
If so, indeed, by Rédei's theorem, there is a directed Hamilton path in the tournament (or complete directed graph); and any such path is naturally and uniquely divided into a sequence of constituents of two kinds of induced subtournaments, namely, either consisting of just one vertex, of containing a directed Hamilton cycle; and such that for any vertices and with the edge between s and t is directed from s to t. Moreover, it is fairly easy to find these Ti, together with one Hamilton cycle for each (for the nontrivial ones). The main trouble I perceive would be that any such Ti (except the smallest ones) could be expected to contain a large number of different directed Hamilton cycles (even disregarding those which just are rotations, obtained by choosing a new 'first vertex'). Are these Ti your bracelets?
If i guessed right about the setting, so far, I think an important point would be whether or not you consider it probable to have many small bracelets (i.& nbsp;e., small Ti) in your application. My ten cent opinion is that in 'sufficiently random' situations you would rarely have more than one bracelet (i. e., you would have r=1, i. e., the graph itself would contain a directed Hamilton cycle); simply since there are fairly few ordered bipartitions of an n-set (actually many), and fairly low probability for any given one of them to have all edges between them directed 'to the right'. If you seldom or never accounts neclaces with some smaller size 'bracelets', you would gain little in preloading a list of these.
But perhaps you have reasons to believe different in your sought application (or I misunderstood your question). Regards, JoergenB (talk) 23:20, 28 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Since a directed graph is also called a digraph, I assume that "complete directed graph" means the same as "complete digraph", with twice the number of edges of the tournament for the same number of vertices.  ​‑‑Lambiam 00:23, 29 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Lambiam reads me right. —(the user formerly known as Tamfang) —Antonissimo (talk) 01:13, 29 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Seems to me that most tournaments would have no Euler path. —Antonissimo (talk) 01:15, 29 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Eulerian, not Hamiltonian. ~2025-31850-11 (talk) 12:16, 29 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for pointing out that distinction! —Antonissimo (talk) 03:50, 30 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]

November 26

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Busy Beaver numbers, Rayo's number, inaccessible cardinals

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Aren't Rayo numbers(using arbitrary arguments instead of a googol),conceptually the same as Busy Beaver numbers, except using logical symbols instead of theoretical computer science? Also, it seems that although infinite instead of finite, inaccessible cardinals are conceptually similar in that they use the idea of defining them as what one cannot "get to" using all previously used techniques.Rich (talk) 20:33, 26 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]

There is a conceptual similarity. You may find the essay "Who Can Name the Bigger Number?" interesting. It was penned years before Rayo offered his solution. See also List of numbers/Uncomputable numbers on the (sometimes somewhat cryptic) Googology Wiki.  ​‑‑Lambiam 23:54, 26 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]

November 27

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Hasse diagram of the "is a divisor of" relation

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  1. For which positive integer n, the Hasse diagram of all positive divisors of n ordered by the "is a divisor of" relation is a planer graph?
  2. If n is a positive integer, and the Hasse diagram of all numbers >=1 and <=n ordered by the "is a divisor of" relation is a planer graph, what is the largest possible value of n?

~2025-36798-45 (talk) 20:21, 27 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The Hasse diagram based on the divisors of a positive integer is constructed as follows:
1. For a prime power , the diagram is effectively a line with vertices, e.g. 1-2-4-8 having 4 vertices.
2. For a product of prime powers , it is the Cartesian product of the line graphs corresponding to the contained factors.
If your number has two prime power factors, then this graph is pretty much just a grid, and obviously planar. If your number has four prime factors, then it must admit the non-planar hypercube graph as a subgraph. If your number has exactly 3 prime factors then it seems to be a bit complicated, and I will have to reflect on this a bit. GalacticShoe (talk) 23:14, 27 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Doesn't contain the "utility graph" as a subgraph?  ​‑‑Lambiam 00:22, 28 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
should just be the graph of a 3D cube, which is planar (e.g. File:Cube skeleton.svg) GalacticShoe (talk) 00:57, 28 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, so when there are three prime factors, if at most one of them has a power above 1, then it is planar; this can be seen as drawing the graph is a series of nested squares. In the article for Hasse diagrams, the example given for factors of 60 is a graph of this form that can be rearranged into a planar graph. Meanwhile, I think the graph corresponding to a number (essentially four cubes pasted together in a 2 by 2 grid) is nonplanar, but I can't find a convenient online tool to test planarity, and I'm having an annoying time trying to find a or minor a la Kuratowski's theorem. If it is the case that this is nonplanar, then the criterion would be as follows:
The Hasse diagram of the divisors of a positive integer is planar if and only if the integer either has at most 2 prime factors, or it has exactly 3 prime factors of which only one may have a power greater than or equal to 2.
Or more succinctly,
The Hasse diagram of the divisors of a positive integer is planar if and only if the integer has at most 4 semiprime divisors.
GalacticShoe (talk) 00:51, 28 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
This online SageMath program shows that indeed the graph is nonplanar, confirming the condition mentioned. The list of positive integers with nonplanar divisors Hasse diagram, i.e. the list of positive integers with at least 5 semiprime divisors, starts 180, 210, 252, 300, 330, 360, 390, 396, 420, 450, 462, 468... GalacticShoe (talk) 02:44, 28 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
As for the latter question, the largest value for which the Hasse diagram is still planar is 27. When you add in edges for (4,28) and (14,28), it breaks down, as per this online SageMath program. GalacticShoe (talk) 08:05, 28 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]

December 1

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