Wikivoyage:Travellers' pub

I made a proposal here to introduce a template for sections of longer routes, in order to better organise these sections, collect (and use) structured data, as well as introduce new functionality, such as a direct link to a text section from dynamic maps, or the other way around.

I would love to get some feedback on it! Bluecoordinationfine (talk) 21:04, 5 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

As an update to this, I made a template here Module:SectionInfo/sandbox as well as here Module:RouteSection/sandbox.

Usage examples:

A section of trail from here to there

21.9 km

6:30 hr

1010 m

Let me know if you have some feedback to share!

Edit, updated the old template as well to show a few options.Bluecoordinationfine (talk) 15:59, 16 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

I don't like it. It takes up too much space, and there's nothing better about the template vs just typing it by hand. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:33, 16 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

I'm in the same boat as WhatamIdoing. This adds some slight ease of information, but other than that I don't see a lot of benefit to introducing this. Especially not considering how space-inefficient this template is as it sits. Were it significantly smaller, I would be more likely to be in favour. Also: Does all this need to be done through Wikidata and OSM when most websites and promotional material for hiking routes provide this same information already? Can't it just be copied over from that and thereby simplify this template significantly?

I do generally welcome efforts to make information more easy to find at a glimpse, and this template could potentially help, were it smaller. Based on LF Zuiderzeeroute (admittedly a cycling route), I've made a little mock-up of how I think a template with this information should be: As little text as possible, conveyed as intuitively and as non-invasive as possible. Something this size could be aligned above or below a dynamic map (which I understand from the discussion you linked, it should interact with to some extent?), whilst not taking the attention away from the article itself.
― Wauteurz (talk) 20:26, 16 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

I like Wauteurz's suggestion – it's not very intrusive and presents important information needed without taking up excessive space. //shb (t | c | m) 22:52, 16 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

That's really cool! I would even use that bottom stats line for simple listings of trails. Gerode (talk) 23:11, 16 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

Hey! Thanks so much to both of you for the feedback.

You're absolutely right, the current version is far too bulky. And thank you for creating that mock-up!

> Also: Does all this need to be done through Wikidata and OSM when most websites and promotional material for hiking routes provide this same information already?

My thought process was this:

I first noticed that hiking itineraries were formatted inconsistently. A template seemed like a good way to standardise part of the itineraries themselves, as well as the section stats. While working on that, I learned that to display hiking trails on dynamic maps using the mapshapes template, the trail sections (from OpenStreetMap) need to be linked to Wikidata items.

That got me thinking. Could we get some additional benefits from structuring the information? Creating these sections in Wikidata provides a way to link geodata with section stats. We could compute section stats from the geodata, or use the linking to create clickable trail sections.

The alternative, as you mentioned, would be to copy the information from official websites. I could create GPX files, manually split them into sections, and write out the stats, but this wouldn't give me a direct way of linking a section on a map to a section in text. The geodata and section stats would be separate. This runs somewhat counter to the Wikimedia model of using centralised, structured data. Bluecoordinationfine (talk) 23:12, 16 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

Right, I get the reasoning. My main worry is that we're a quite small lot of editors on this project, and only few have the capability to maintain a template that calls and calculates data from elsewhere, let alone do the configuration to make this template work for the trail (section) they want to write about. The last thing I would want is that a template gets abandoned because no-one can maintain it. If there isn't one yet, a manual overwrite might be a useful addition, so that the template can also be used by manually inserting the data it displays.
― Wauteurz (talk) 10:52, 17 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

That’s a very valid point about maintainability. I should have mentioned this earlier, but the template already supports manual data entry to address that exact issue.

You can see a demonstration here: User:Bluecoordinationfine/SectionInfo test. This way, any editor can use it without needing to use Wikidata from the get go, similarly to Markers/Listings. Bluecoordinationfine (talk) 11:32, 17 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

Very nice! One last little gripe: I see you can switch between whether metric or imperial units are used. Would it be possible to add a conversion between the two so that you can see distances and such in both notations? No metric trail is safe from people used to thinking in imperial measurements and vice versa, after all. Either via mouseover text or in parentheses like {{convert}} should work fine for that.
― Wauteurz (talk) 14:19, 17 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for the reply!

I've made a few changes, which can be found here in Module:RouteSection/sandbox, I've added the tests in User:Bluecoordinationfine/RouteSection test. The changes are:

1. I've renamed it to RouteSection. This name is more versatile since the module can be used for any type of route (hiking, cycling, etc.).

2. Parameters are now passed through directly, so you can use templates {{m|123}} for values such as distance.

3. I've added a |convert=yes/no switch. This controls whether data pulled from Wikidata is automatically formatted with the {{convert}} template.

4. Data entered into the template takes precedence over data from Wikidata, similar to Markers and Listings.

5. I've changed the presentation to be a single line as the output.

I'll look into tables next to see if I can make the output similar to the mockup. Bluecoordinationfine (talk) 15:15, 17 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

Instead of a |convert=yes switch (I decide for all readers whether they see both), you might consider a [convert] button (each reader decides whether to click the button and see the other option). WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:42, 17 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for the suggestion! My main concern is that a clickable button would be problematic for people using screen readers, as it hides information by default.

The current approach, where the editor decides to show both values, is also more consistent with established wiki practice. Bluecoordinationfine (talk) 18:19, 17 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

I've added a small test here: Lapplandsleden Bluecoordinationfine (talk) 18:14, 19 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

I think it's safe to say there's sufficient consensus for using this template? //shb (t | c | m) 12:04, 16 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

btw I still have a slight preference for Wauteurz's design since I find it less intrusive and more modern, but it would still regardless be a great step in our slow process to slowly modernise our site. //shb (t | c | m) 12:19, 16 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Same preference here. Especially the use of headings in the module's output I find undesirable, but that's personal preference.

One actual issue I see, is that this is now a module doing the work of both a module and a template. Based on how other templates and modules function, there should still be a {{Trail}} or {{TrailSection}}, that can manage manual overrides without needing to invoke the module, and present the data in an appealing manner. That also gives the advantage of not needing to meddle with the module code when trying to modernise or facelift the way this data gets presented, making long-term maintenance more accessible.

@Bluecoordinationfine, if you want me to, I'll happily make the template side based on my earlier mock-up, including actual iconography. That will require some adjustment from the module to interface nicely though, and I don't possess the skills to handle that side. I've got all the time in the world to work on it this week and should be able to get it done in a day - just let me know.
― Wauteurz (talk) 12:42, 16 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Hey! That's a good comment, I haven't looked into the difference between modules and templates. And thanks a bunch for the offer! Here's my main findings from experimentation:

Headings

The problem with the headings is that that's how the majority of hiking guides are now structured, using headings for trail sections. Using a table also makes using headings impossible it seems, based on my experimentation.

We could change this of course (maybe we could make an overall table of the trail, including all stages as well, to make it easy to navigate?).

From/to

The other thing is the "from" and "to". This template takes the name from wikidata, and ignores the from and to wikidata values. There's a reason for this. Sometimes the section of trail actually has a name, i.e. a smaller named trail is part of a larger trail. In the vast majority of cases, neither the "from" nor the "to" value will have page links. Bluecoordinationfine (talk) 16:40, 17 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

So, the issue with this inserting headings is, that we automatically put 'edit'-buttons behind most headings. I fear that having templates insert headings will clash with that in some way. Furthermore, I am of the belief that templates/modules should add to an article in the way that images do: They add to the usefulness of articles, but do not add essential elements of article structures (such as headings).

Is there not a way to check whether the linked Wikidata item contains a 'to' and 'from' value, and only display the "A → B" when those values are defined for the item, replacing them with the section name if they aren't? I believe I've seen checks like that used in other modules.

I'll see if I can draft a little template draft using the module, and I'll ping you on its talk page with what it'd need from the module.
― Wauteurz (talk) 22:01, 17 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Since this discussion died again, any final objections to making this final (without putting it in headers)? I think we can figure out the fine-grained issues later, such as Wikidata. //shb (t | c | m) 03:07, 5 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Hey! I didn't get any notifications from this one. I won't have a lot of time in the upcoming months to work on this I'm afraid.

The thing is, without the headings or wikidata link, there's not much sense in doing it.

I also get Wauteurz' point that headings are not optimal here, so I'm a bit stuck on what a good approach would be. Bluecoordinationfine (talk) 08:01, 5 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

So, I did start working on adapting the mock-up from earlier into a template as I mentioned above. I ended up having some hassle with {{convert}} and left it at that at that stage. At this point it also doesn't interface with the module since that would require the raw values to be individually printable by the module. Still, it is a purely HTML-based version of the table, which maybe could be adapted into the module instead? A dummy template (without any core functionality) can then be used so that editors don't have to mess about with invoking the module.
― Wauteurz (talk) 10:39, 5 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

The icons look amazing! I lost some layout in the process, but I made these now following your recommendations.

Template:RouteSection/sandbox

Module:RouteSection/sandbox

They're used here for testing purposes:

Lapplandsleden Bluecoordinationfine (talk) 14:39, 24 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Did some layout fixes, it's now identical to the one you've shown linked. I'm not sure I like it, it doesn't seem to fit very well in the Lapplandsleden article. Bluecoordinationfine (talk) 11:53, 25 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

I agree. You are using your template like a subsection header, but the current iteration (matching Wauterz's prototype) with center alignment doesn't look like a header. Play with the alignments - left align the title, and maybe remove one of the linebreaks to give the header line more heft. I think something like this would work well on your demonstration page:

Lappland Trail: Hemavan - Atoklimpen

40.7 km 11 hr 573 m

The trail begins in the small village...Gerode (talk) 17:18, 25 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ It's looking pretty great, Blue! I would agree that they look off in this context though, but that's probably down to the mock-up I made originally. I imagined it being used in larger articles with more padding. It's not a hiking article, but take Belgian coast by tram as an example of what I pictured before me. The template's size would be less of an issue there, and having it stuck to the right side of the article would allow the key content to flow around it better. I would argue that an inline variant would be more suited for Lapplandsleden (and probably a lot of other articles). Seen as how hiking articles are usually already subdivided into sections (A-to-B-headings), doing away with the overarching trail's name would already make the template a decent bit less bulky. More padded articles like John Muir Way really only need the Length/Duration/Ascent information added, so maybe slimming the template down to that could be a viable solution? It'd definitely take some fiddling and input from more people to really work out how to integrate the template into itineraries properly.
― Wauteurz (talk) 18:10, 25 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Thanks a bunch to you and User:Gerode! I've made some changes. Let me know if you have any input. Feel free to make some changes as well! The "convert" problem is solved by passing through converts that are given as input, though I haven't tested that in a while. I'm also not sure if this is the best way of getting information from a module, there may be some improvements there.

I see the point about the Belgian coast by tram article, which is why I would have liked to have the section names as headings. Bluecoordinationfine (talk) 19:45, 25 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

I'll have a look, but I can't guarantee that I have the time to contribute anything meaningful. I get the appeal of using headings, but it's very much not-done to insert structural elements through templates. Templates generally are optional elements, and having them insert essential elements like headings both creates a dependency on a template working correctly, and makes the template itself less flexible. There are, after all, quite a few articles that work great but don't necessarily follow the MoS step for step, either because they were created before the MoS covered them, or because their topic doesn't lend itself well to the MoS.
― Wauteurz (talk) 11:03, 26 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Fair enough, I understand the problem now. The goal was for this to become somewhat similar to listings. I'll keep the optionality in mind. Bluecoordinationfine (talk) 21:33, 26 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

If we’re not planning to add any structural elements through templates, this is probably the best approach for now. You can check the Lapplandsleden page for reference. One possible visual improvement might be a left-aligned infobox. In any case, it would be great to hear from others who have more experience with this kind of layout. Bluecoordinationfine (talk) 20:15, 27 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

The alternative option is used here: Skye Trail. It can now be used without a name as well. Optionally, from/to parameters could also be added. Bluecoordinationfine (talk) 21:22, 27 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Quick comment on the Belgian coast by tram article. Shouldn't it have a "Go" heading, and have the sections as subheadings (according to the template)? Bluecoordinationfine (talk) 20:23, 25 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

https://jeremymaluf.com/onebag/ —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:40, 7 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Most students have chosen their main projects: Anseong, Anyang (Gyeonggi), Asan, Busan/North, Busan/Suyeong, Cheongsong, Dujiangyan, Gimcheon, Gimpo, Goheung, Gumi, Gurye, Gwanggyo, Hadong, Haman, Hapcheon, Huaibei, Hwacheon, Ichikikushikino, Jangheung, Jiaozuo, Jingzhou, Kitahiroshima (Hokkaido), Ko Racha, Linfen, Miryang, Mokpo, Muan, Nan'ao Island, Nanhai (Foshan), Pingdingshan, Ruijin, Ruzhou, Sejong, Seoul/East, Seoul/Gangnam-Seocho, Seoul/South, Siheung, Taebaek, Tangshan, Tongnan, Uiwang, Ulleungdo, Xishuangbanna, Yeoju, Yesan, Zhongmu County. As usual, it may be a good idea to watchlist them until end of the year. I am giving feedback to students on my Wikipedia user talk page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Hanyangprofessor2). If there are any issues, you'd like to bring to my attention at article talk pages, or student talk pages, please ping me. Hanyangprofessor2 (talk) 08:42, 7 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Ps. If anyone would like to volunteer to receive extra pings for me due to their familiarity with Wikoyage manual of style, or Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese, Thai, or Japanese locations, please let me know. Occasionally I try to ping relevant Wikivoyage experts (you folks) when replying to students, but frankly, I am not active enough here to always remember "who's who" (I'll make a ping-cheatsheet for myself based on replies here, if any :P). Hanyangprofessor2 (talk) 08:51, 7 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

I'm happy to be pinged for Chinese locations.

From the list you gave, Xishuangbanna stands out as a popular destination where our coverage is already decent, so it's especially important for the student working on it to make sure their changes are genuine improvements.

As for Nanhai (Foshan), it's worth noting we currently cover it in the Foshan article, along with all other districts of Foshan except Shunde. I'm not sure if it makes sense to split Nanhai off, and if we do, it would leave the Foshan article as an awkwardly discontinuous combination of Chancheng and the outlying districts of Sanshui and Gaoming. If the student wants to create a new article for Nanhai, this is probably worth discussing at Talk:Foshan. —Granger (talk · contribs) 12:35, 7 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

For a city of supposedly 7 mil people, I am very surprised with how little content we have for Foshan. I don't know much about the Guangdong area, but from the perspective of someone who isn't familiar with the area, I'd find it more useful if the information were condensed together rather than to have a separate article for only one district of the city. //shb (t | c | m) 12:48, 7 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

The current population of Foshan is about 9.7 million and around a third of them live in Shunde District, which we cover in a separate article. STW932 (talk) 16:32, 7 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Xishuangbanna is a region article, so the student may need to be reminded that individual listings belong in the city articles. STW932 (talk) 16:37, 7 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

That article is supposed to be edited by @Redyeoni who is retaking the class and seems to have forgotten about it (no edits at all this semester...), sigh. Hanyangprofessor2 (talk) 16:20, 12 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

@SHB2000 @STW932 @Mx. Granger I am not sure if you support or not splitting that article. I'll ask the student in question, @SUN JIAYI's, to start a discussion at Talk:Foshan and propose a division of that town into districts. Since we already have Shunde, I think adding more districts makes sense. Right now it is mentioned at Foshan#Towns (as the only entity); which seems not ideal... Hanyangprofessor2 (talk) 16:23, 12 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

I'm undecided, as I don't know Foshan well enough to really have an opinion. Does Nanhai feel like a separate destination with its own identity, or like part of central Foshan? Would we split off this district by itself or would we divide the whole city into district articles? Why not add the information to Foshan for now and split it up when there's enough information to support multiple fleshed-out articles? Those are some of the questions to think about. —Granger (talk · contribs) 19:36, 12 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Yeah, I don't like partially districting cities. It's messy. But it's of course complete reasonable to propose a complete districting scheme for a city of several million. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:41, 12 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

I agree with Ikan here. //shb (t | c | m) 22:31, 12 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Me too. The biggest problem with splitting off Nanhai District is that you would then have a huge physical gap between Foshan's central district (Chancheng District) and the two outer districts of Sanshui and Gaoming. So doing a separate article on Nanhai cannot be justified unless you are also going to create separate articles on Sanshui and Gaoming. STW932 (talk) 23:13, 12 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Definitely, unless there are enough listings to district the entire city. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:46, 7 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Seen as how I wrote the Dynamic map guide especially for your students' use, I'm more than happy to be pinged and approached for anything ado with those dynamic maps. I currently am unable to actively patrol their work because of my own work though, so I hope that's not an issue. ― Wauteurz (talk) 21:15, 7 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Hanyangprofessor2 Is Ziyi Deng one of your students? They appear to be drafting an article about Yueyang's central district. See User:Ziyi Deng/sandbox STW932 (talk) 12:29, 11 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

@STW932 Yes, I spotted it few days ago and recommended them to change their topic to Yueyang instead Hanyangprofessor2 (talk) 16:25, 12 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

https://magazine.atavist.com/2025/america-i95-conversations-trump —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 01:39, 9 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Hello. Please help pick a name for the new Abstract Wikipedia wiki project. This project will be a wiki that will enable users to combine functions from Wikifunctions and data from Wikidata in order to generate natural language sentences in any supported languages. These sentences can then be used by any Wikipedia (or elsewhere).

There will be two rounds of voting, each followed by legal review of candidates, with votes beginning on 20 October and 17 November 2025. Our goal is to have a final project name selected on mid-December 2025. If you would like to participate, then please learn more and vote now at meta-wiki. Thank you!

-- User:Sannita (WMF) (talk) 11:43, 20 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

For folks who don't know what this is:

We have a number of standard sentences that we frequently write in articles (e.g., "Smallville is a town in northern Ruritania with a population of 10,000"). Imagine that you could start an article by just putting in a sort of 'template' (the call them functions) that would pull the contents from Wikidata for you. You could copy it to plain text, keep some or all of it connected to Wikidata (e.g., if the population of the town changes), or decide that you don't like it and write your own sentence (or try a different 'template'). And, importantly, once the 'template' existed, we could do this in any language. It would speed up article creation and sharing content between all the Wikivoyages.

It may be a couple of years before we can even test this, and I think it will have lower utility for English-language projects than for smaller ones, but I think there is a lot of potential for basic assistance in this project. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:35, 24 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

The population figures could be useful. That’s something that gets out of date here. Likewise, for large businesses such as airlines that go bankrupt, a Wikifunction connection could be useful. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 20:58, 24 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Yes, keeping the guide up-to-date is a problem & automating some of that is a fine idea. Not just numbers from Wikidata, perhaps also things like exchange rates or hotel prices.

Natural language text might not be the only output format. That can be a fine thing, but it is also a notoriously difficult problem & some data might more naturally be presented in a table or graph. Pashley (talk) 21:57, 24 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

I imagine this will more so help smaller-language Wikivoyages (as WhatamIdoing said) way more than it would here, especially since about a third of them seem to be very dead. //shb (t | c | m) 22:26, 24 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Exchange rates seem like a good idea.

Or maybe some pieces of the cautionbox? Simple (subject-verb-object) sentences like "There was a flood on [date]" and a relevant external link could help many languages. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:07, 25 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

This term is used a lot for French and Italian villages: to take a random example, in Fa'a'ā, it's stated that "Fa'a'ā (or Faaa or Faa'a) is a commune on Tahiti." I think this is wrong on an English-language site. In English, "commune" means only a community that has collective ownership of property. Does anyone disagree? It was not until I took my first trip to Italy that I came across the use - in Italian (comune) - of the word in anything other than a context of collective ownership of community property. I recognize that it will be hard to keep editors from continuing to misuse the word, but not misusing it and editing out its misuse would help readers to understand what they're reading. A similar case is with the word "pension", which means a monthly (or perhaps biweekly) payment for retirees and is not a type of lodging in English. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:48, 22 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

If people think that using the "official" name is helpful (e.g., if you're likely to get directions that sound like "you need to take an Uber to the next commune"), then I'd leave it in but add an explanation: "Fa'a'ā is a commune (town) in Tahiti".

If we don't think visitors will hear the official name, then I'd just change it to a well-known English-language equivalent. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:15, 22 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary gives one of the meanings of pension as "a usually fixed rate boarding house", so I think its use as a type of lodging is recognised in British English. It also has "a French territorial division" as the first meaning of commune, with "a communal settlement" coming third. AlasdairW (talk) 22:36, 22 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

While dictionary definitions can be useful, the plain language defintion that most people Will understand will be the one that Ikan Kekek described. For other uses, we should treat commune as a foreign word, i.e., italicized and translated, as we would for ciudad or ville. Ground Zero (talk) 23:01, 22 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

I agree with GZ. //shb (t | c | m) 23:10, 22 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

The word "commune" is not a foreign word, so writing it in italics would be incorrect. One way around the problem is to create a template "{{commune}}" which would expand to "[[:en:Commune#Administrative-territorial entities|Commune]]".

When I tried this expansion in Wikivoyage, it did not work, but when I tried it in the Afrikaans Wikipedia it worked as expected (See here). A similar template "{{Pension}}" could be created which would link to "[[:en:Pension (lodging)|Pension]]". We could equally well link up to the associated word in Wikidata. Martinvl (talk) 21:08, 23 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

I'd be happy with that. We'd have to be careful not to do a global search and replace, though, because there is probably some mention of retirement pensions somewhere (Retiring abroad, if nowhere else), and no doubt, "commune" is used to refer to collective ownership of property in the past (such as was the case with some 19th-century religious communities in the U.S.) and probably in a few cases in the present. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:24, 23 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

But before we do this, we have to remember that we don't do those kinds of inline Wikipedia links on this site, and if we start with these terms, a slippery slope is easily imaginable. Also, one demurral: French-language commune and Italian-language comune are foreign words. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:28, 23 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

I have created Hotels#Pensions to say what a pension is in a couple of lines - please expand or correct. I also see that Sleep uses the term pension without saying what it is. AlasdairW (talk) 22:33, 23 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

This should be written "[[Hotels#Pensions|pension]]" so that a sentence could read "The town has many small pensions." I suggest that we create a template which would do this substitution as it is much easier to remember the text "{{pension}}" that it is to remember the full expansion. A template has the added advantage that if the source text is changed, then we need only make one change to the template. Martinvl (talk) 21:09, 24 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Yeah, that's very useful. Is there a way to make the redirect work with "pensione" also? Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:47, 24 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

If we are happy with what it says, I think it would be better to create a redirect Pension or Pensions. We generally avoid unnecessary use of templates templates, and readers will readily find the link in the search box. I don't think we should give an explanation of a pension every time it is used. AlasdairW (talk) 21:49, 24 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

I meant including pensione in the template, but a redirect as you suggest would work. Do we need a disambiguation if retiree pensions are covered in Retiring abroad? Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:35, 24 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Isn't it even better to explain words that readers may misunderstand in an article, rather than making them click through to another article? Ground Zero (talk) 01:16, 25 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

You are right. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:50, 25 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

While I appreciate that some might not like links to the English Wikipedia, I do not think that the argument holds for links to Wikidata - after all Wikidata has links into Wikivoyage! The strings "[[:Wikidata:Q3266850|commune]]" and "[[:Wikidata:Q1065252|pension]]" expand into "commune" and "pension" respectively. Using Wikidata has the added advantage that if the artcile is translated into another language, the link is still valid (even if it is redundant). If we do go the Wikidata route, it would be almost mandatory to create templates. Martinvl (talk) 20:46, 25 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

In my experience, people are very confused by Wikidata pages. For translation purposes, a Wiktionary link might be better than Wikidata, but the obvious solution is to provide a brief description in the Wikivoyage article. Then it works offline too. That's not a high priority for me personally, but I know that matters to other contributors. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:11, 25 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

I agree. //shb (t | c | m) 22:21, 25 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

I think that a simple redirect is a better, more newcomer-friendly idea than a subst:able template. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:10, 25 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

I looked at both Wkidata and Wikitionary options. While Wikidata might be difficult to navigate, the definition that we are looking for is right there so there is no need to navigate it. On the other hand Wikitionary gives all the meanings so the information given might well be confusing and leave the user none the wiser. Martinvl (talk) 21:33, 25 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Looking further into pensions around the world, it appears that pensions in South Korea are a bit different, where they are cabins with kitchens. In Japan they differ from Minshuku in having Western-style rooms. I think that we need to put a localised description of a pension in the Sleep section of country articles of those countries where they are common. AlasdairW (talk) 22:13, 25 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Another way to handle this usage of "commune" would be to put an explanation somewhere & have a redirect pointing to it, as we do for the Philippine administrative unit barangay. I think this is the right way since it avoids both leaving a confusing term unexplained & cluttering multiple articles with the same explanation. In this case, though, there are two complications. "Commune" has another well-known meaning in English & our explanation must deal with that. (see Gîte for a possibly relevant example) Also, where do we put the explanation? France? & Italy? Europe? Pashley (talk) 04:47, 29 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Yeah, a disambiguation like Gîte might be good. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:31, 29 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

We still need the disambiguation targets. For pensions, France#Sleep etc. would be the obvious ones, perhaps having a link forward to Sleep#Pensions, if the word has about the same meaning in several countries. For commune, I don't think we explain administrative entities in the Understand of country articles, but it might make sense in the cases were the entities matter for the traveller. In Finland#Regions, we have a discussion from the cultural perspective. Over here there are too many overlapping regional administrative entities that might be relevant to explain compactly; the municipalities are important, but I have regarded that word as globally understandable. What's the difference between French commune and municipalité? –LPfi (talk) 07:23, 29 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Hi. Given that Korea recently banned their citizens to travel around Bokor Mountain (Kampot), Bavet and Poipet, and advises citizens of this country to leave Sihanoukville, is it necessary to update relevant articles so that tourists can stay informed? Nvdtn19 (talk) 16:07, 22 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

It's a travel ban, that means if Korean continue traveling in those areas, will indeed face penalties. Nvdtn19 (talk) 06:16, 23 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

One article with background. The targets seem to be job-seekers rather than tourists. Pashley (talk) 18:35, 22 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

We would normally handle a situation like this with Template:Cautionbox in the destination article. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:41, 22 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

I think we should have a cautionbox. We're a site for travelers, not just tourists. We have articles about Working abroad and Studying abroad. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 21:34, 22 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Absolutely. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:42, 22 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Yes & probably in working abroad as well as destination articles.

For the destinations, one caution at country level or many in region/city articles? Ideally I'd say one with links from affected areas, but is that practical? Pashley (talk) 00:19, 23 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

It's difficult to say. Maybe we should see which pages get the most views in the region? It's often fascinating how one town's article receives virtually no views while an article for somewhere nearby receives hundreds a month. I think it's due to SEO and search engines. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 12:37, 23 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Yeah search engine optimisation results in really weird stats like these. //shb (t | c | m) 12:48, 23 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

We have Template:Overseasjobscam but at present it's only used on country-level articles. I think links from affected areas with the overarching warning being in the country or region article, is probably the easiest solution. And yes agree with adding it to working abroad as well. //shb (t | c | m) 12:46, 23 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Hello everyone,

I have recently completed updates and improvements to the Gumi article on Wikivoyage.

I would greatly appreciate it if experienced editors could take a moment to review the article and provide feedback or suggestions for further improvement.

Thank you very much for your time and support. Hong Da Hyeon (talk) 06:03, 24 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Thank you for expanding the article. I have only had a quick look, but did notice some areas for possible improvement:

• See has a list of Other attractions. It would be better to have some details, preferable full listings. Are there primary links for any of the See listings?
• Geumosan Market should be moved to buy unless you expect most visitors will just come to look, not buy.
• Is the Lotte Department Store a department store or a shopping mall?
• In sleep, add links to the hotel's own website.

AlasdairW (talk) 13:01, 24 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Thank you for your response. I have made all the revisions, and I would appreciate it if you could review them. Hong Da Hyeon (talk) 00:28, 31 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Hi everyone! I have been improving the Yueyang article as part of a class project at Hanyang University. I’ve added sections on climate, city layout, and history, and I would really appreciate any feedback or suggestions to make it better. Thank you! — Ziyi Deng (talk) 13:13, 26 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Hi! Here are some steps that would improve the article further:

1. We have a template that we use for representing climate information. To create this you need to insert the template "climate chart" into the article and copy over the data from the table into the chart.
2. All sections after "See", but especially "Eat" and "Sleep" need to use the listing templates {{eat}} and {{sleep}} with listings of specific restaurants and hotels in the city.

--Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 13:28, 26 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Thank you so much for taking the time to review the Yueyang article and for providing such clear and constructive feedback. It was incredibly helpful for a new contributor like me.

I have implemented both of your major suggestions:

1. I've replaced the previous climate section with the standard Wikivoyage {{Climate}}

chart template.

2. I've fully converted the "Eat" and "Sleep" sections to use the proper .  and .  listing templates, adding specific examples of restaurants and hotels.

The article should now much better align with the community's formatting standards. I've made these edits in the main article space. Could you please take another look when you have a moment and let me know if it looks correct now?

I really appreciate your guidance in helping me improve the quality of the travel guide.

Best regards, Ziyi Deng (talk) ~ Ziyi Deng (talk) 13:52, 2 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

I found there's an user writing in their own userpage and comment about Wikivoyage purposes (of course, not me). They wrote that: "comment more on Wikivoyage: in this day and age, I find Wikivoyage to be impractical, it's plain and old. One bad thing about Wikivoyage is that it's written by people who have never traveled to that place before. The content there is also really unattractive, lacking reviews, real-life experience videos, and a specific tutorial. Tourism is not a stable kind of knowledge, it changes very quickly and no member here can update it all in time. This is definitely going to be a dead project." Is that view practical? Despite their comments, I see that many of the articles here (especially travel topics) are valuable references. As a long-term contributor to Wikivoyage, I have mixed feelings, but I tend to oppose their views. What do you think about this issue? Nvdtn19 (talk) 18:18, 28 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Are you referring to the discussion above? OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 21:23, 28 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

I know that discussion. The commonality is that both of them does not contribute much to Wikivoyage, so may not have realized how meaningful this project is. Nvdtn19 (talk) 23:42, 28 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

I have mixed feelings about that comment, but we will become a dead project if we don't get a mobile app for sure, though. //shb (t | c | m) 23:45, 28 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

That to me should be the priority right now. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 00:09, 29 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

After Commons (which only has an Android app) and maybe Wikidata, IMO Wikivoyage seems like the next project where it most makes sense to have a dedicated reader app. //shb (t | c | m) 03:21, 29 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

It made sense like 20 years ago... Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:44, 29 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Apparently the WMF doesn't see this the same way. :/ //shb (t | c | m) 06:05, 29 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

OsmAnd, the longstanding map app built on OSM data, does have Wikivoyage integration. I think you can check it out on their free tier. It's not great in its current form, but I've found it useful in a few situations. Does anyone have context on how that integration came to be, or if our community has any relationship with them? Gerode (talk) 17:15, 29 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

See also Wikivoyage:Goals and non-goals. Pashley (talk) 03:55, 29 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Parts of this resonate with me. I don't pay much attention to Eat and Sleep listings, for the reasons that user describes: the content goes stale fast, it's unlikely that every listing was informed by a user's experience (much less a user with good taste), and in 2025 there are just much better and more dynamic tools on the internet for that kind of stuff. Also, which goes back to a short thread someone posted here a few months ago, there's little room for storytelling in WV articles, which is the most natural way to engage with content. I haven't been inspired to plan an entire trip around something I found in a WV article, because even a good article isn't as gripping as other forms of media.

I disagree with that user for other types of content. The Grand Canyon and the Colosseum have been there for thousands of years. Much of what I go to see only needs to be well-written occasionally, and then peppered with minor updates as users visit them. And while I can find a million other write-ups on the Grand Canyon and the Colosseum, far too often those other write-ups are either promotional advertising, overly fluffy, "here's what I did on my 3-day weekend", gamed for 5-star reviews and SEO, or personality-driven. The best WV content is current, comprehensive, hype-free, non-gamed, and useful at-a-glance, which is a valuable combination of traits that I can't find in other formats. (AI is starting to come close, but it has a nasty habit of BSing me.)

I'm fairly new here. I can back to the site a few years ago, after not really using it for a decade. COVID kinda killed travel blogging, and since then I just haven't been able to reliably find everything I'm looking for on social media groups, short-form video, long-form video, or enshittification-era Google. WV had a couple articles for a trip I took that was not on the well-worn influencer path, the content turned out to be highly useful, so I updated the articles when I got home to pay it forward. I got in the habit of doing that for my next trips, and now here I am ranting. If we get enough other people do that, then WV still has the potential to add something unique and valuable to the travel information landscape. Gerode (talk) 04:46, 29 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

You are welcome ? ~2025-30521-69 (talk) 14:34, 29 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

For what? Are you saying you're a block-evading sockpuppet? Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:57, 29 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Probably just a run-off-the-mill vandal. //shb (t | c | m) 23:04, 29 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

When planning for travel, I use as many sources as possible and that includes Wikivoyage, even for Eat and Sleep listings. I find that every source of information (real life friends and family, Tripadvisor, the hotel booking/travel agent websites, Google Reviews, official government/tourism websites, YouTube vlogs, Reddit/Facebook groups and other forums, influencers on Instagram/Tiktok, various AI from ChatGPT to DeepSeek, travel documentaries and books, Lonely Planet, acquaintances you meet in person during your trip and of course Wikivoyage) complements each other and don't consider any single source to be good enough to completely stand on its own. Gizza ^(roam) 23:33, 29 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

I will say that I rarely add "Eat" listings for places where I have not eaten myself, and I stand behind every listing I add for eateries I've been to, so you can rely on those. Of course, few if any of you know my taste. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:17, 30 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

I agree. I also rarely add listings for places where I have no interest in or have never been to. But anyways, Wikivoyage is just a wiki, not a social network that can contain reviews, storytelling, or real-life experiences video, so we shouldn't underestimate its purpose. These things is out of project scope's. Wikivoyage should only be treated as an additional source, as there are many useful sources for travel. It's better to look for information on various sources before traveling instead of focusing on just one source. But anyway, I think there should be a certain strategy to improve this project so that it doesn't die, if not then we will be left behind. Nvdtn19 (talk) 05:57, 30 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

In some ways, I miss the days when food discussion sites like Chowhound and eGullet were reliable sources of restaurant information. Nowadays, it's pretty much all sites like Google and Yelp. We help where we can, but on the early 21st-century food discussion sites, you could follow someone and get a sense of what their taste was, and bad recommendations tended to get panned in discussions. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:50, 30 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Sometimes I've wondered if we should legitimately have a travel forum on Wikivoyage where we (and casual contributors) can just share our experiences and initiate discussion, kinda like what r/travel or r/solotravel but on a site that is not Reddit – I've found those those two subreddits incredibly helpful when travelling to a new destination and wonder if this might draw on some new users. //shb (t | c | m) 08:33, 30 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

I'd be in full support of that. I believe that a discussion forum that enables users to share their actual experiences would orient our focus back toward travel and increase website engagement. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 12:14, 30 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Me too. We'd have to decide how it would be different from the pub, the tourist office and the arrivals lounge, though, and whether we would fold some of those into it. Why wouldn't we host it here, on our own site? Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:09, 30 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Yeah, it's okay that WV isn't everything for everyone, and the way I use it doesn't have to be the way everyone else uses it. There's no use trying to compete head-on with OTAs and restaurant review aggregators that can scale to millions of users and turn bits of low-effort content from them into valuable tools. And I can't think of a way to make WV as visually compelling as a social media video from a professional influencer.

I think there's room for anecdotal content in a way that doesn't detract from the "tightness" of guide articles. For example, it would be useful to see a selection of "A Long Weekend in Bangkok"-style personal itineraries, trip reports, or image galleries like I see on Reddit and Facebook, perhaps in a "comments"-like section at the bottom of an article. Judging by what's available on the wider internet, it's what a lot of people are looking for, even though I largely agree with our policies that discourage it for our articles. I've had idle thoughts about writing "Weekend in Bangkok" style guides for my home region in my User space, where zero people will see it. Gerode (talk) 17:39, 30 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

About "Why wouldn't we host it here, on our own site?": Because wiki software is not fit for that purpose. For example, it allows people to change each other's comments, which is surprising and generally considered unacceptable for a discussion forum. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:35, 30 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

As someone who was once a moderator of a site where people had 24 hours to edit their posts and then could request permission for an edit, all this requires is moderation, which we will need, anyway. And yes, I did note the difference between editing other people's posts and editing your own. Either way, wherever these forums would be hosted, we need to have control over moderation. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:15, 31 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

I don't think it will be too hard to set up – such a page (probably Wikivoyage:Travel forum) would just need to combine elements of this page (the pub), the tourist office and the arrivals lounge, all of which already exist. Maybe a few more instructions for users not familiar with the MediaWiki interface and that's it. Nowadays you don't really need to know MediaWiki syntax for discussions with the reply tool now fully implemented. //shb (t | c | m) 01:18, 31 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Since the Pub is more about the site, we might want to keep it separate. I don't know. But I think it could be good to have several forums under one umbrella. That's how the food discussion sites I used to frequent worked. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:57, 31 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

I'll fiddle a demo in my userspace sometime tomorrow and see how something like this could be implemented. //shb (t | c | m) 02:15, 31 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

"it allows people to change each other's comments", while it's technically possible to change, I don't understand what the purpose of changing someone else's comment is? Most people don't arbitrarily change each other's comments and have their own opinions, even on this page. And if there are changes, they are just minor, such as fixing spelling mistakes, or deleting violation contents. Nvdtn19 (talk) 02:55, 31 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Exactly. Just like we don't accept substantive changes to people's talk page posts, we wouldn't accept them in forums. It's no different. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:29, 31 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Definitely – quite literally the only difference is that we're using MediaWiki software, not dedicated forum software like Reddit or Whirlpool. //shb (t | c | m) 03:49, 31 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Why you might change someone else's comment is less important than the fact that you can. If you want to host a discussion forum, the users need a reason to be confident that they won't wake up in the morning to find that their name has been placed under a comment they didn't write. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:17, 31 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

That means that x-number of users with at least patroller tools need to commit to moderating the forum(s). Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:21, 31 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Or it means using software that does this automatically, by design. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:06, 1 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Moderation will be needed, regardless, just as it is needed on any other Wikivoyage page. I don't get why you think there will be more users editing other users' posts on new forums than anywhere else on Wikivoyage. Do you think they will attract a lot of users and therefore be big targets for vandalism? If so, attracting a lot of users is great! Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:18, 1 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

No, I think that people unfamiliar with wikis are weirded out when they see how a talk page works, so it may discourage potential participants from posting anything in the first place. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:44, 3 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Would new users even need to know how a talk page works, though? Speaking more broadly, I feel as though the reply tool, now that it's been fully implemented, removes a lot of that barrier that previously existed with needing to know wikitext to contribute: indenting, signing a talk page, adding a new topic – all of which the reply tool does very well nowadays. //shb (t | c | m) 07:55, 3 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

I think it's pretty simple. We have buttons on several discussion pages (including this one, if I'm not mistaken) that say: "Click here to add a new topic". Then you write your post, and these days, it even signs it for you. Combined with the reply tool, I really don't see why someone would struggle with this. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 13:17, 3 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

I think that just being different could be a barrier to some used to other commenting tools. The reply tool is very useful, but doesn't handle all situations well, and long chains of replies get squashed to the right.

The issue of other people's comments being editable could be addressed with a video explaining how page history works, and how anybody can always use Compare selected revisions to see exactly what was originally posted, and if that is not what is now shown to see who changed it and when. AlasdairW (talk) 16:01, 3 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Oh for sure, but I don't think it's prohibitive. I think the challenge is making people aware of such a page in the first place. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 16:21, 3 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

The mobile experience is different, too, and I'd expect a lot of newcomers to be on mobile devices. (Also, no push notifications or the other 'features' that keep people coming back to the site.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:07, 3 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

If you really wanted to do something like this, I'd suggest software such as https://forum.movement-strategy.org which not only lets people use their Wikivoyage account but also has features like built-in machine translation, so that everyone can write in their own language. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:41, 3 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

I support this idea about travel forum, as long as it doesn't turn into a spam fest. It's a brilliant idea to use this approach to bring more people into the Wikimedia environment (and hopefully convert some of them to regular editors for Wikivoyage and other WMF projects). We're not Wikipedia and we can chart our own path. Travel guides are inherently more casual and conversational than encyclopedia and we should embrace it. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 16:18, 3 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Agreed. Our roots as a travel guide rather than an encyclopedia (especially mid-2000s) attracted the widest editing base, even if it wasn't as dedicated as our community today. The best world is one in which we have both communities co-existing: the dedicated base from the Wikimedia side, and the casual traveler-contributor. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 16:23, 3 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Ikan Kekek, SelfieCity, Nvdtn19, OhanaUnited: Sorry, I'm very late (been quite busy with irl assignments – still plenty more to go but I need a break :P) but a mock demo at User:SHB2000/Travel forum. Feel free to edit or add anything to it, but my idea is that once it's up and running, to promote this by leaving it up on the sitenotice permanently. //shb (t | c | m) 10:18, 9 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

How is this different from the current Wikivoyage:Tourist office? OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 15:41, 9 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

The tourist office is only for travel questions; it isn't really a place to share travel experiences the same way subreddits like r/solotravel are. //shb (t | c | m) 21:19, 9 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Thank you very much for creating this mock-up! May I edit the language slightly? Also, if we want people to feel free to post anecdotes, we should specifically mention that as something they can do, as it's different from the rest of the site. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:29, 9 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Yes please :). //shb (t | c | m) 21:32, 9 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Given there have been no further comments, any objections to moving the travel forum in project space tomorrow? //shb (t | c | m) 08:33, 16 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Sorry for the late reply :( but hey SHB, I still find your travel forum details a bit vague and still doesn't specify what's the difference between it and Wikivoyage:Tourist office. I see r/travel rules have some rules that we can also apply here, you might want to refer to it? eg, no copy-pasted AI answer.

About the difference between TF and TO, I can suggest some details: TO is for specific and factual travel questions (e.g., "I need a hotel in Paris under $100/night for these dates", "What's the best way to get from Rome Fiumicino airport to Termini station?"), while TF is for open-ended discussions, sharing stories, asking for opinions, and talking about the experience of travel (e.g., "What's your 'perfect' day in Paris?", "What was your most memorable train journey?" or "Discussing the pros and cons of solo travel.")

Also we should advice questioner to provide contexts (eg. vague questions like "Where should I go?" will get better answers if you state your interests, budget, and travel history).

For general question about Wikivoyage, it should be in WV:Arrivals lounge instead. Nvdtn19 (talk) 14:30, 16 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

My previous experience as a moderator of a site with online forums is that we can't expect people to be meticulous in deciding which forum to post in and may have to be prepared to move things if we have different forums for different topics, especially if they're closely related. But I don't agree that the new travel forums should be only about open-ended discussions, such that someone who wants to offer the recommendation to take one train line, rather than another, and explains why by posting about their experience should be confused about where to post. I also think requests for restaurant recommendations based on x, y and z criteria should be fine to discuss in the new travel forum. At some point, we may want to divide the travel forum into several forums, but let's see how much volume we get, first. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:54, 16 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

I agree with this. Maybe some day the tourist office will become a subpage of this, but I think at the moment I'm with you [Ikan] that we should be prepared to take on anything. //shb (t | c | m) 23:16, 16 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

I also used to be a moderator of a forum, and sometimes I was unhappy when someone posted something in the wrong place. This is also true on Wikipedia, a question about how to use Wikipedia should be on Teahouse rather than ANI. So now I'm thinking there will be possible options: consider merging tourist office into the travel forum (this will expand the scope and we don't have to think about dividing the forums), the other is to divide the travel forums (but perhaps that only suitable when TF is getting more attentions).. I think we should apply option 1 at the moment first, what's about your ideas? Nvdtn19 (talk) 00:25, 17 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

I'd support merging the Tourist office with the new forum. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:36, 17 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Forum is now at Wikivoyage:Travel forum. (I'll get the ball rolling with a small travel plan of mine upcoming next week later today) //shb (t | c | m) 07:24, 17 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Late, but I've basically done everything needed to merge the tourist office with the new travel forum, except redirecting the tourist office to the forum. I'll do that once the existing discussions are archived. //shb (t | c | m) 08:56, 24 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Anyone else getting this issue? Screenshot is of Thessaloniki. //shb (t | c | m) 12:21, 30 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Works normally for me. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 12:26, 30 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

For the record, I'm using Google Chrome on macOS and use vector 2010 globally. I tried testing this on Safari (logged out) and while it isn't see-through, I see something that isn't see-through but similarly off. //shb (t | c | m) 12:38, 30 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

The second screenshot (I assume that's the one you feel looks off) looks okay to me from a technical standpoint. I know the color scheme of the editor was updated a few days ago, so that's why it looks whiter than it did before.

I'm also using Google Chrome, but on Microsoft Windows. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 12:43, 30 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Yeah the second is Safari which looks off but not the end of the world – first is what's truly terrible to use (on Chrome). Also pinging @Andyrom75, Nvdtn19: if either of you know what's causing the listing editor to do this. //shb (t | c | m) 12:44, 30 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

@SHB2000, colors have been changed by @Jdlrobson to not have problems on dark mode.

Maybe there is room for slight color change. I've added an image with the original colors for reference.

Similar thing will occur also on the listing color, even if without such big impact.

PS: the transparency was caused by a "tentative patch" where the background-color wasn't set. Andyrom75 (talk) 15:05, 30 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Sorry. I have been primarily testing on the default skins Vector 2022 and Minerva so overlooked skins where CSS variables are not defined. Thanks for the fix @Andyrom75 I have reflected these upstream. Jdlrobson (talk) 15:48, 30 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Awesome – thanks to both of you. Works on my end perfectly now. //shb (t | c | m) 03:32, 31 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

I'm leaning towards using the third option (original colors), as it's obviously looks better than other designs. Currently in Thessaloniki, when I click the "Add listing" button while in light theme, I still see the background overlay editor has the same design as the second image (new colors), and it also has an ugly background when switching to dark theme. If you want to go back to using original colors, then might consider applying CSS in MediaWiki:Gadget-ListingEditor.css:

.ui-widget-overlay {
    background: #000000 !important;
    opacity: 0.7 !important;
}

After adding this CSS, the editor will looks like this when using light theme and like this when toggling dark theme. Nvdtn19 (talk) 02:42, 31 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Jdlrobson @Andyrom75 Could some of you review this? Nvdtn19 (talk) 05:50, 31 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Nvdtn19, the effect is desirable and similar to the original behavior. I'm in favor of this patch. Have you already checked if "!important" is mandatory? Andyrom75 (talk) 08:11, 31 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Nvdtn19, it seems that works without it.

I've applied a slight change on your proposal, trying to follow the original intent (put a overlay with the opposite color of the background to have a contrast):

.ui-widget-overlay {
    background-color: var(--background-color-inverted, black);
    opacity: 0.7;
}

Andyrom75 (talk) 09:14, 31 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Jdlrobson, @Nvdtn19, I've made some tests to have a different (better?) effect on dark mode applying @media screen and (prefers-color-scheme: dark) customization but apparently it doesn't work. When I specify the alternative @media screen and (prefers-color-scheme: light) it use only the light definitions, if I remove it, keeping the general definition (stated in the previous post), it use only the general one. In practice, the dark customization is always ignored. Am I doing something wrong? Andyrom75 (talk) 09:40, 31 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Andyrom75: Sorry, but it seems you didn't get me? I mean, just add the suggested CSS without anything changed. I have tested myself in viwikivoyage (where I'm also a IA there), and can confirm that works. For now, just add the exact line I mentioned, then clearing cache and wait a moment for the change to take effect. Also, it's not necessarily to use !important, you can remove it if you want. Nvdtn19 (talk) 10:10, 31 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

If you want to set a different style for dark theme, then may use this code:

html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .cssid {
	/* your customization */
}

@media (prefers-color-scheme: dark) {
    html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .cssid {
      	/* your customization */
    }
}

Nvdtn19 (talk) 10:22, 31 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Hey @Andyrom75 as I said to @Nvdtn19 I am currently focusing on getting rid of jquery.ui and getting a native Wikimedia dark mode support which has been my ultimate goal when helping with this code to stop it working altogether. The dark mode has been a distraction from that goal. The current dark mode experience is fine please lets just leave it as is. Jdlrobson (talk) 14:46, 31 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Nvdtn19, when you ask for "review" I suppose you want a feedback. My main feedback was to eliminate the "!important" because it complicates future modification.

Thanks for the suggested code, now the overlay is nicely shown in both light and dark mode.

@Jdlrobson, I know that JQuery.ui is deprecated, but as long as we use it, would be a good idea to have a nicer interface. Andyrom75 (talk) 19:41, 31 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Jdlrobson: It'd be a very large amount of work to redo something that is still working. You sure that you'll be able to getting rid of jquery without breaking anything? Btw, my overall impression of Codex is that it's still unfinished, i.e. it does not have feature parity with previous mw:MediaWiki front end frameworks such as mw:OOUI. Nvdtn19 (talk) 05:25, 11 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Each year, typically from October through December, several of the movement’s committees seek new volunteers.

Read more about the committees on their Meta-wiki pages:

• Affiliations Committee (AffCom)
• Ombuds commission (OC)
• Case Review Committee (CRC)

Applications for the committees open on October 30, 2025. Applications for the Affiliations Committee, Ombuds commission and the Case Review Committee close on December 11, 2025. Learn how to apply by visiting the appointment page on Meta-wiki. Post to the talk page or email cstwikimedia.org with any questions you may have.

For the Committee Support team,

- MKaur (WMF) 14:13, 30 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

For anyone who might be interested:

• AffCom is about organizations. If you create a non-profit organization and want official affiliation with the Wikimedia Foundation as a chapter, user group, or thematic organization, then these volunteers make the decision about whether to accept your org.
• Ombuds is about privacy. They check on the Checkusers and deal with some kinds of harassment complaints. People from a wide variety of cultures/countries/languages/genders/religions/etc. are always wanted, because if they get an inquiry from a Spanish-speaking Afro-Latino gay man, then they'd love to have a Spanish-speaking Afro-Latino gay man to respond to it, or at least someone who matches one of those characteristics.
• CRC is about office/global bans. This group doesn't see utterly hopeless (criminal) un-ban requests (the Legal team handles those), but they're the last stop for the other banned users. My impression is that this group only gets a handful of significant cases a year, and that most requests are denied.

Most people who join these committees say that they learned a lot about the movement from it and that the experience is positive. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:22, 30 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Is anyone familiar with Frankfurt? I have made a proposal to districtify the city here. Comments would be appreciated. Ground Zero (talk) 17:45, 30 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Hello,

My edit to the Sandbox page was just blocked by the anti-vandalism filter. I am a new user and I was only trying to test the editing features and learn how to contribute. My action was constructive, not harmful.

Could you please review and whitelist my edit? Thank you for your help! Kk778 (talk) 07:38, 1 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

You have made 6 edits to Main Page/Sandbox. My question is: Why? Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:43, 1 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Hello Ikan Kek,

Thank you for reaching out. I apologize for the confusion caused by my multiple edits to the Main Page/Sandbox. I am a completely new user who is unfamiliar with how the wiki editing system works, and I was using the Sandbox to practice basic wiki syntax and editing functions.

I did not realize that repeatedly saving test content — especially text that may have appeared random or incomplete — would trigger the anti-vandalism filter or be perceived as disruptive. My only intention was to learn how to edit and eventually contribute constructively.

If possible, could you please advise on the proper way to practice editing, or suggest where I should conduct such tests without affecting important pages? I would greatly appreciate your guidance.

Thank you for your understanding. Kk778 (talk) 07:49, 1 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Hello Ikan Kek,

Thank you for your message. The reason for my multiple edits is that I am completing a school assignment which requires me to learn and practice how to edit on a wiki platform using the Sandbox.

As a new user, I was experimenting with the wiki syntax and saving my progress to see the results. I now understand that my repeated saves, with content that may have looked like test text, triggered the anti-vandalism filter. I apologize for the confusion. My actions were entirely for educational purposes.

Could you please advise on how I can proceed with my assignment, or whitelist my edits so I can continue? Thank you for your understanding and help. Kk778 (talk) 08:24, 1 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

You can use the Wikivoyage:Graffiti wall. If that's not sufficient, you can create sandbox subpages of your user page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:42, 1 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

What would you like help editing, though? Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:45, 1 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

I concur with Ikan – use the graffiti wall to test editing as the main page sandbox doesn't have a bot to routinely clear the page content like the graffiti wall does. //shb (t | c | m) 10:02, 1 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

(Jargon: What some wikis call a "sandbox", we call the "graffiti wall" instead.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:45, 3 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Why is this so wholesome. Oak lod (talk) 15:42, 4 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Also you may want to put further questions on the arrivals lounge. The link can be found in the green box at the top of the page, or just click here. (Also, you can use four tildes (the ~) to insert your signature.)

Oak lod (talk) 15:49, 4 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Last week my students completed the activity asking for a review at Wikivoyage:Requests_for_comment#Article_review_requests, but that page gets much less traffic than here. The few students who erroneously asked for feedback here got it (thanks), but the ones who correctly asked there generally got nothing so far. Can you take a look? Hanyangprofessor2 (talk) 13:24, 1 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

It looks like several students still need a reply. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:39, 6 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

I nominate you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:47, 6 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Thank you in advance (or post factum) to whoever finds the time and will for that. There's still ample time for student to fix any issues, so the feedback has a solid chance of not being wasted (this will become much more problematic next month...). Hanyangprofessor2 (talk) 12:54, 6 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

@SelfieCity - friendly ping (and thanks for a ton of other recent reviews...). Hanyangprofessor2 (talk) 12:57, 6 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Hanyangprofessor2: unfortunately, many students choose to ignore the feedback that regular contributors provide, which reduces our incentive to help the students. Ground Zero (talk) 22:08, 11 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Ground Zero Sadly, this is true for most new editors in general. If you tell me which students repeat the errors, I can double down on warnings, and as usual, a good wake up message is a week or so block for repeated offenders, which can often wake them up. Hanyangprofessor2 (talk) 02:01, 18 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Ps. I'll add that from my perspective, it looks good. As in, whenever a student asks for feedback at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Hanyangprofessor2 - and I have plenty of such requests - I check what they edit, and their talk page on Wikivoyage, and if there is any feedback unanswered, I tell them to reply to it. And I generally see they do it. Now, I also am sure that there are some students who do not ask me for feedback, and likewise they ignore the feedback they get. After all, I regularly fail, hmmm, 20% of my classes (I'd have to double check TBH), and others get a score below A. As we discussed before - there is no way to force students (or any new editor) to do things correctly. Some will be motivated and learn. Others will be lazy and/or cheat. C'est la vie. Hanyangprofessor2 (talk) 02:26, 18 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ While this is true for new editors in general, you ask for feedback on your students' work, and your students ask for feedback on their work. Providing feedback takes more time and effort than fixing or rolling back edits. When that feedback is ignored, it makes regular contributors feel like providing feedback is often nit worth the bother. Here are two examples where changes requested have not been made: 1 and 2. Here are examples are students who have repeated errors after they have been explained and students who have corrected their errors only after repeated messages/explanations: 3, [ https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/User_talk:JinhanC 4], 5, 6, 7, 8.

While there is no way to force students to do anything, getting feedback from other volunteer editors depends on that feedback being worth providing. Often, it is just wasted time.

The quality of the edits this year has been much better than last year. Where students pay attention to the assignment page, they make fewer of the annoying formatting errors, so we can provide better feedback on the content. You will notice that I often copy and paste advice from your assignment page into comments for students who are not paying attention to the assignment page. (The addition of formatting for phone numbers is useful.) Ground Zero (talk) 13:33, 18 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Sorry that I missed that ping. I'll take a look at the newer requests. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 14:27, 18 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

From what I can see, I have responded to many of the recent ones, or Ground Zero has. If you'd like to point out specific ones that need feedback, let me know. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 14:29, 18 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

That's very diligent of you. Like Ground Zero, I find it very time-consuming to read through an entire article and make a numbered list of comments on it, so my approach tends to be to comment on things that get my attention, such as when I am patrolling new edits, either by posting to the article's talk page and/or the talk page of the user who's primarily editing the article.

But I'll note something that some student editors do that is worth thinking about how to nip in the bud next time: they like to make concluding statements in listings like "Perfect for spending sunny days with the whole family" that violate Wikivoyage:Don't tout, WV:Words to avoid and the house style of this site, which is to present information and let travelers decide for themselves. That said, it's fine to say that a restaurant has excellent or tasty x and y, but not that it's "perfect for socializing with friends" and the like. Moreover, it needs to be underlined that hotel listings must not tout a "good location" or mention that the hotels are "near" anything they aren't literally next to or across the street from, and that the "directions" tab is for brief parenthetical points such as the cross streets or the name of the nearest subway station, not long, multi-sentence directions from the nearest main train station. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:41, 18 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

For your information. We just placed a checkuser request. Your user NXP is ours ist in the list. -- DerFussi 14:27, 1 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

No action needed. The account made 0 edits and is globally locked. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 14:51, 3 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Also users will appear locally registered even if they've visited the wiki once. That doesn't mean we're obliged to do anything about it, though sometimes we do if the username is indicative of a cross-wiki LTA. //shb (t | c | m) 21:47, 3 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

New York Times has an interesting article on guided tours and tourism which exposes less proud views of well-visited cities, such as poverty and political opposition. Can this inspire us? Stockholm environmentalist tour mentions the dilemmas of a city which presents itself as sustainable while expanding a network of six-lane highways. /Yvwv (talk) 02:48, 3 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Some people might find that type of thing interesting. I would add it in with a little message/disclaimer telling the reader what the purpose of the tours are and what to generally expect.

Oak lod (talk) 15:28, 4 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

I think we already have some of that, for example our Rio de Janeiro article includes some info on favela tours and we have an entire article about Organized crime tourism. Mrkstvns (talk) 15:20, 6 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Right. I think we should tread carefully on these so-called "anti-tourism tours." I haven't read the article, but at least as far back as the 1920s, rich white people would go "slumming" in Harlem dressed in furs and pearls. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:04, 6 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Let's bring back our cherished traditions! Wikimedia Small Projects is excited to announce the return of Wikivoyage 13, and this time, we've got two fun activities lined up:

• Wikivoyage Asian Month: In collaboration with the Wikipedia Asian Month User Group, we're thrilled to host the second edition of this event. You can find more details at this link.

• Wikivoyage Loves Venezuela: Partnering with Wikimedia Venezuela, we're launching the inaugural edition of this event, focused on creating and enhancing articles about Venezuela. Ends Dec 31.

As always, we'd love to hear from the en.wikivoyage community—are you interested in helping organize Wikivoyage Asian Month, Wikivoyage Loves Venezuela, or maybe even both? Your participation can make these events even more special!

Regards, Lord Ravager (talk) 14:16, 6 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Sounds interesting. I don't really want to be an organizer, but I would be happy to participate by adding content related to both Asia and Venezuela. Good luck with the event! Mrkstvns (talk) 15:27, 6 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

I'm happy to grade the articles for Wikivoyage Asian Month, hopefully using the same criteria as we did last year. //shb (t | c | m) 22:04, 6 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

I agree with using last year's envoy criteria. In fact, I would say that the global criteria scoring is overly complicated. I don't think we ever used the points system to determine a "winner". Ultimately, the goal is to improve the content of the project. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 05:10, 7 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

I agree – I think while it's nice to have a winner, most people who contribute to WAM do so for the fun of it, not to win the competition. Winning is just a nice added bonus for whoever contributed the most articles. //shb (t | c | m) 05:21, 7 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

I’m all in favor of the idea. However, I think we should focus on Asia. Travel to Venezuela is strongly discouraged by governments around the world, and the risk of getting kidnapped as a tourist is high. It’s just not a travel destination given the current crime epidemic there. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 05:54, 7 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

I think it's fine to still improve our coverage of Venezuela, even if few people will be actively travelling there at present, but at the very least we should have someone who is hopefully from Venezuela to assess those articles. //shb (t | c | m) 07:18, 7 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Sure. But if we want to focus our efforts where they will be the most helpful to tourists, I think Asia is our best bet. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 14:51, 7 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

If this happens on English Wikipedia, please let me know and I'd advertise this to my students. Hanyangprofessor2 (talk) 12:19, 10 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Hey everyone! I'll break my replies into a few parts:

• Just like last year, each community has the freedom to set its own local standards based on what works best for you. No worries if you prefer not to follow the global criteria!
• Selfie City: We understand the situation in the country is pretty chaotic right now. We're doing this to help bring more Venezuelan content to other Wikimedia projects—eventually, we hope the crisis will be resolved, and sharing useful info about Venezuela isn’t a bad thing at all.
• Hanyangprofessor2: This is the version of Wikipedia Asian Month that's tailored for Wikivoyage. You're more than welcome to join the English Wikipedia edition of Wikipedia Asian Month.
• Since Mérida celebrated Japanese Culture Week, we decided to kick off Wikivoyage Asian Month last week. But hey, if your community wants to start a bit later, that's totally fine—no pressure at all!

Regards, --Lord Ravager (talk) 00:51, 18 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Lord Ravager Thanks, I made an announcement to the students. If there is ever an English (or Chinese) Wikivoyage event like this, please let me know. Hanyangprofessor2 (talk) 02:07, 18 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

I'll create a page for this tomorrow or later tonight, hopefully we can kick it off next week (lots of irl matters this week for me :/). //shb (t | c | m) 00:43, 19 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Hanyangprofessor2 Pretty sure that the English Wikivoyage event will go ahead (I just don't have the time to create the page). The Chinese Wikivoyage event page has already been created but the rules are still pending. Based on what I read, the Chinese edition is reducing the difficulty from every 4000 bytes of improvement for 1 point down to 3500 bytes/point to account for Chinese being a higher information density language. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 01:41, 19 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Seems like a reasonable criteria for zhwikivoyage. //shb (t | c | m) 01:46, 19 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

@OhanaUnited, Hanyangprofessor2, Lord Ravager, SelfieCity: Done – see Wikivoyage:Wikivoyage 13. The only thing that hasn't been decided on yet is the start date. I'm personally willing to accept all submissions from tomorrow (so that Piotrus' students can participate) – your thoughts? //shb (t | c | m) 02:59, 19 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

I'd be happy with that. Piotrus' students do a lot of marvellous work! I know we complain about some of the recurring mistakes, but the amount of excellent, colorful content they add is great! Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:11, 19 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Agreed. Piotrus' student projects tend to be one of the better organised group projects on this site and the outputs, even if they require some cleanup from regulars, is always a net positive. //shb (t | c | m) 03:17, 19 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Yes! I'd add that I hope to work with a professor to create a similar endeavor for a class he's teaching in the spring. I'll be a guest lecturer to guide the students if it does happen. That project will be focused on the U.S., and particularly Florida. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 03:40, 19 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Good luck with that! Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:03, 19 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

@SHB2000 thanks! I would also like to mention that, in line with what Plotus is doing, we have an educational program focused on eswikivoyage at a school in Mérida, Venezuela. It might be excellent to document these educational initiatives (past, present, and future). Regards, Lord Ravager (talk) 21:03, 19 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Ooh, that's nice to hear. It definitely would be nice to document them for sure (though some seem to be hosted on Meta which might make that tricky). //shb (t | c | m) 21:15, 19 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

I’m thinking we could set up a global page for Wikivoyage educational stuff—maybe call it "Wikivoyage Education Program" or something like that. I’ll handle that in the next few days. Also, I’ll work on designing a logo for Wikivoyage’s anniversary since it’s been a while since I’ve done one. Lord Ravager (talk) 21:45, 19 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Make sure to check the instructions for students I have on my user page - I expect they'd be useful for any instructor. I also have an academic paper on teaching on Wikivoyage I hope will get published somewhere (so far it has not been lucky, sigh). Hanyangprofessor2 (talk) 12:14, 20 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

@SelfieCity The above was for you, forgot to ping. Good luck with your class! Hanyangprofessor2 (talk) 12:14, 20 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Thank you; I've announced it for the students. Hanyangprofessor2 (talk) 12:12, 20 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

The first new subsea habitat in 40 years is about to launch. Should we cover this, or other such sites? Where? Pashley (talk) 05:55, 8 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

The article says that it is to be used by scientists doing research, so I would say that is outside of the scope of a travel guide. Ground Zero (talk) 15:39, 8 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Agreed. But web search for "underwater hotel" turns up quite a few & those might make a good travel topic.Pashley (talk) 15:49, 8 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

That would be a good topic. Ground Zero (talk) 16:50, 8 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Perhaps generalise it to include things like the underground hotel in Shanghai or the one that is mostly ice in Finland. Pashley (talk) 02:24, 9 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

We already cover dive sites. "Deep" habitat will be at 50 m off the Florida Keys. Probably worth a marker once it's on site, as although only researchers will visit, the structure might be visible to recreational divers from 30 m. Grahamsands (talk) 21:23, 9 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

This is the local name for the Sea of Japan in Korea, and it's not recognized internationally. I was confusing it with the East China Sea, I fear I have put the wrong sea name in some articles, and sadly, if so, I don't remember which ones and would need to look at everyplace along the east coast of Korea, but you all can be alert for this, in case you come across it. I believe the local name for the East China Sea in Korea is "West Sea," but I stand to be corrected. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:24, 9 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

In my continued attempts to try slowly modernise this site, something I've been testing out is to get a grey background when you hover over a regionlist item. After quite a few attempts to troubleshoot this, I've finally got this feature successfully running. Unfortunately the way {{regionlist}} is coded means that I've essentially had to push this on the actual template to test the feature. Nonetheless, you should be able to see this in action on any article with a regionlist (examples at Toronto, Lower Darling or Texas).

The main benefit of this is that it adds a dynamic element, giving a more modern feel and give more of a 2025 look to {{regionlist}}. At the moment it's just a test, though; curious to hear overall thoughts on this. //shb (t | c | m) 10:11, 10 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

I should mention that at the moment it only works on light mode – I'm not sure how to add css to support dark mode simultaneously. //shb (t | c | m) 10:18, 10 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

@SHB2000: I have successfully implemented the dark mode version of the hover background effect using the @media (prefers-color-scheme: dark) {} block. I have used it to implement the dark mode in some of my off-wiki web projects on GitHub. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 14:07, 10 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Oh awesome – cheers Sbb. :) //shb (t | c | m) 21:14, 10 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Hang on I just noticed that it stopped working on light mode. I'll see what's causing this. //shb (t | c | m) 21:18, 10 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Well, it works for me on both light and dark modes. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 01:50, 11 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Nvdtn19 fixed it. :) //shb (t | c | m) 03:18, 11 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

I like it. It may not be a remarkably important change, but it is definitely an improvement.

Who would maintain this code? Could it be handed off to the mediawiki developers? Pashley (talk) 14:50, 10 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

I like it! Are there thoughts on making the grey area a clickable button, maybe to follow the labelled link or to emphasize the shape on the mapframe? Gerode (talk) 17:44, 10 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

I've thought about that, but I'm not entirely sure how to implement that. //shb (t | c | m) 21:16, 10 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

It looks good, but until it can be clicked, it's bad UI (esp. with the hand cursor). And I'd say also if it doesn't highlight the map elements (hard to do with static pictures :) ), it has limited advantage... -- andree 06:34, 11 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

With temporary accounts now well underway, we need to decide how to grant TAIV (shorthand for temporary account IP viewer). I made a draft at User:SHB2000/TAIV, but we need to discuss how to properly assign this user permission, noting that whatever requirements we set cannot be lower than the WMF requirements (wmf:Policy:Wikimedia Access to Temporary Account IP Addresses Policy) – which at present, is minimum 6 months + 300 edits and must be explicitly requested (which means it cannot be bundled with any other user group, nor can it be automatically granted).

I personally think the only local addition we should make is that users requesting TAIV must either be an autopatroller, a patroller, or a template editor, since that is our local requirement that we use to determine trust.

Thoughts? //shb (t | c | m) 09:50, 11 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

My inclination is to stick with the WMF minimums (disclosure: I was one of the people making recommendations to the Legal folks about where to set those numbers; you can probably thank/blame me for the 6 month standard).

Mostly I suggest sticking with the minimums for simplicity's sake, but also for practicality. What if we get a cross-wiki anti-vandal patroller, who doesn't have/need/want those other things? If we don't trust someone, we can and should just refuse to grant the permission.

The main addition I'd suggest to your draft is a reminder to admins/granting folks that they should not grant this permission to anyone they don't believe to be an appropriate candidate for any reason. If you think someone's not going to do well with this user right, or even if you have some vague misgivings, then don't put your name down as the admin approving it. Let that be done by someone else. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:09, 11 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

@WhatamIdoing: I thought of that too, but most x-wiki vandal patrollers can get the patroller permission assigned to them on request, if they don't have GR already (which comes with global TAIV) – meaning functionally it wouldn't be any different, except we'd have policy-based grounds to preventing frivolous requests by overeager users from obtaining TAIV. I don't feel too strongly about it, so if y'all think that we shouldn't have a minimum autopatroller/patroller/TE requirement, then I'm happy to omit that.

I do agree about admins who should be able to reject a user on the basis that someone might not be the right fit for it; I'll add that down. //shb (t | c | m) 22:22, 11 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Also since TAIV requests must be explicitly requested, I am wondering if we should create a separate page for TAIV (and other non-admin permission requests) – maybe something like Wikivoyage:Requests for permissions. //shb (t | c | m) 03:30, 12 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

I don't think we should create separate pages for any process, until the central process page is both obviously and frequently overloaded. More pages = fewer effective watchers = less community oversight.

Wikivoyage:User rights nominations is not necessarily just for admins, so we could use that page, if you didn't like to have it at the Pub. It might be nice to encourage the idea that whichever central page is chosen is the normal process, but that requests could be made personally to an admin. That might reduce the embarrassment of an admin needing to personally reject an editor when another admin would be willing to grant it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:15, 13 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

The issue with WV:URN is that it is only for perms that require nominations and I don't think the pub is a particularly good place since we don't archive pages here. This is also fairly anecdotal, but I have received some requests off-wiki (usually either via Discord or email – don't remember how many, but it's quite a few), way more than I do for similar requests on Meta or Wikibooks. I suspect that's because our current advice of just "ask an admin" is pretty unintuitive and also looks downright embarrassing if you ask an individual admin but don't receive a response, and this issue has been avoided elsewhere by having a dedicated page for it.

As for more pages, I don't think it's that much of an issue. I expect it to be frequented as much as Wikivoyage:User ban nominations, but I would argue that a separate page would mean more oversight since all requests are on one single centralised page and not on individual admin talk pages, email requests or swept away somewhere. //shb (t | c | m) 08:36, 13 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Does Wikivoyage:User rights nominations ban self-nominations? Should it? If not, then it'll be fine. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:09, 13 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

We should probably rename that page if more than anything if we are gonna keep requests there. //shb (t | c | m) 21:26, 13 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

As a result, I do not see a need to require a certain user right before asking for TAIV either, because it's up to the admin to determine whether the threshold for trust is met. Leaderboard (talk) 07:25, 12 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Should it be made a recommendation, then? //shb (t | c | m) 07:52, 12 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

On the one hand, it's kind of common sense that if you do have these extended user rights, then we trust you, so there's no need to say it. On the other hand, if we do say "recommended to have ____", then we're implicitly saying "not recommended for anyone else", which is probably not exactly true. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:08, 13 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Hmm, true – I suppose we could quibble around with the wording a bit to imply that. I'll see what I can do once I have a bit more time. :) //shb (t | c | m) 08:37, 13 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

A recommendation sounds fine to me (so you have a better chance if you have the right, but it's not like an auto-deny if you don't). Leaderboard (talk) 10:10, 16 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

I've also added a sentence stating that if you don't meet the recommendations and are unsure to still consider requesting, which should hopefully let users who are unsure to still consider requesting and not get put off by that message. //shb (t | c | m) 10:40, 16 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Given the lack of any further comments, I've gone ahead and moved the page. Since there is no consensus on the specific location, I'm going to create a subpage for the requests for now. //shb (t | c | m) 02:20, 1 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

I just traveled from Addis Ababa (Ethiopia) to Hargeisa (Somalia/Somaliland) overland. I did it using local transport only (for example, from Jijiga to the border I sat on a bucket). This route attracts interest because it's a way for people to visit Somalia (at least in the de jure sense) without having to go to Mogadishu. However, when attempting to research how to go about it, I realized that the information on the internet is quite sparse and outdated. I ended up having to figure most of it out myself. Would there be any support for an Addis Ababa to Hargeisa overland (or whatever title) article? I could probably spend my downtime writing it. Brycehughes (talk) 20:42, 13 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

For what it's worth, I think there is a wiki (WikiOverland) dedicated to this topic. But I'd support having an itinerary for that. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 21:12, 13 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Very cool adventure. I would love to read about it. Ground Zero (talk) 21:15, 13 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Selfie City That's for "overlanding", i.e. using a 4WD vehicle and going places. To disambiguate the term, I meant "over land", e.g. using trains and buses (instead of flying). Brycehughes (talk) 21:21, 13 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Oh, I see. Would "Addis Ababa to Hargeisa via public transport" better? --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 21:24, 13 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Yes, probably. Or something like this: Alexandria to Cape Town by train and bus. Brycehughes (talk) 21:26, 13 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

You could also stick with the title you suggested, and maybe someone will add some info about using your own or a rented vehicle. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:40, 13 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Maybe they'd contribute but I wouldn't hold my breath. Overlanders (4WDers) are a bit of an exclusive travel community due to high entry costs. Brycehughes (talk) 08:55, 14 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Maybe Addis Ababa to Hargeisa by land would avoid confusion. Ground Zero (talk) 16:32, 14 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Yes, that works! Now that I've posted here let's see if I can get the inspiration to actually write it... Brycehughes (talk) 19:18, 14 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Same – would be really interested (and hopefully this is some good assignment procrastination for me this week :P). //shb (t | c | m) 19:51, 14 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

This week might be pushing it heh. Now I need to figure out how to get back to Ethiopia. Brycehughes (talk) 20:00, 14 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

To take Brussels or Bruxelles? ~2025-33545-94 (talk) 10:24, 14 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

What's your question? Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:51, 14 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

I believe the question is "Shall the English Wikivoyage use the French name for the capital of Belgium?" WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:55, 15 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

If so, the answer (in short, no) is to be found on the Wikivoyage:Naming conventions page. We use the English name and put the French and Flemish names in parentheses. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:48, 15 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Hi, everyone. There is a deletion requests thread for all photos of this square showing the Martyrs' Monument at c:Commons:Deletion requests/Files in Category:Martyrs’ Monument, Beirut. One is currently used in the Beirut article. Discussion at Talk:Beirut#A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion has been inconclusive. User:LPfi and I are negative about or unsure whether the image currently shown at the beginning of the "Understand" section of the Beirut article (at least on my browser) is the most useful one to upload locally for fair use. Would anyone, especially if you know more about Beirut, like to look at the photos covered by the Commons thread I linked and decide on which photo we should upload before they are probably all deleted from Commons? Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:39, 15 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Does anyone use the Firefox browser on iOS or Android? Jijiga, Tibesti Mountains and TAZARA Railway do not load correctly, in the sense that I am unable to expand their sections (I use Firefox on iOS). If anybody has Firefox on mobile, could they confirm that this is an issue? Thanks, Brycehughes (talk) 16:13, 17 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Jdlrobson: Any chance you could help out here. //shb (t | c | m) 21:06, 17 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

FWIW, I haven't noticed anything like this with Firefox on Android, with the default Vector 2022 skin. Gerode (talk) 19:15, 18 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

I have been unable to replicate this @Brycehughes on Firefox mobile. Does it occur for you in safe mode? e.g. this url. If not it could be a gadget running on your user account. Try disabling them all to make the issue go away. Jdlrobson (talk) 18:05, 19 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Jdlrobson You're right - it works with safe mode, so it'll be either a gadget or something in my custom js. I'll have to spend some time going through it all. In the meantime, I may just use your safe mode URL param (thanks for that, it was helpful). Sorry for the bother! Brycehughes (talk) 10:47, 23 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Participate in the discussion there. Faster than Thunder (talk) 03:15, 18 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Hello users, is there a reason on why would the Temporary Accounts replace IP editing? Why is that a purpose to mask IPs? And how could this improve the privacy of an unregistered user? ~2025-34593-63 (talk) 20:08, 19 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

I believe it's due to privacy laws (especially GDPR in Europe Union). But the wiki software can't do "if IP is from EU then use temporary account, otherwise display IP". For a better explanation, check out the MediaWiki's page on Temporary Account. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 20:45, 19 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Precisely this. //shb (t | c | m) 21:39, 19 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Not only because of legislation, but actual privacy issues. The IP address can disclose the device you used, or at least that you edited from a certain location. The most obvious problem is that somebody who uses their employer's internet connection could get in trouble (for WVikivoyage: an edit about services not living up to promises, posted from the local net). -LPfi (talk) 14:20, 20 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Note, however, that some highly trusted users can see the IP address when this is required for dealing with abuse. See Wikivoyage:Checkuser. Pashley (talk) 03:52, 20 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Pashley: btw you should be able to see IP addresses of temporary accounts since all sysops have TAIV. You can enable this feature at Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-personal (under IP information – just tick the box which is really just a long way of saying to not publicly link temp accounts with IPs). //shb (t | c | m) 04:06, 22 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Hello. Reminder: Please help to choose name for the new Abstract Wikipedia wiki project. The finalist vote starts today. The finalists for the name are: Abstract Wikipedia, Multilingual Wikipedia, Wikiabstracts, Wikigenerator, Proto-Wiki. If you would like to participate, then please learn more and vote now at meta-wiki. Thank you!

-- User:Sannita (WMF) (talk) 14:23, 20 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Please review my article. Here is my article Jeng88 (talk) 05:48, 21 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Are all the dynamic maps showing the entire world today, at least for iPhone users on Safari, except (sometimes?) in edit mode? Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:25, 21 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

I haven't been getting that issue – also using Safari on iOS 26. //shb (t | c | m) 23:19, 21 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

We have articles like gemstones & carpets, both of which I worked on & enjoyed it. There are also some on more specific topics: Diamond rings in Antwerp, Purchasing a kimono, etc.

I think an article on pottery would make sense, though I don't know enough to write it. We already mention pottery in many places. China alone has enough centers for an article -- Dehua, Jingdezhen, Yuzhou, Yixing etc, -- & there are many others; searching for "pottery" turns up dozens.

Volunteers? Pashley (talk) 11:27, 24 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

I'd be interested to see such an article on pottery, too. I don't know enough to write about it, but I'll be interested to see what's included in such a pottery article. //shb (t | c | m) 11:49, 24 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Not sure whether they are strictly included in the term "pottery", but tiles (e.g. workshops in Iznik and Kütahya, and used in decorating mosques and monuments in much of the Islamic world) and faience (Delft) could also be covered in such an article. Vidimian (talk) 17:55, 25 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Perhaps make the title the more general term "ceramics" with redirects for tile, pottery, porcelain, ...? Pashley (talk) 20:14, 25 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

(On Ceramics) - The UK certainly used to have large ceramics producers ( Stoke on Trent area), although my experience is that modern high end ceramics tend to be smaller niche independents now?.

(Off topic)- There are also other high end crafts to consider, like Glassware ( Dartington, Venice, Waterford).

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 20:20, 25 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Native speakers call it the Amazigh languages. As such, could someone rename the page Berber phrasebook to Amazigh phrasebook?~2025-36346-42 (talk) 14:59, 25 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Native speakers also refer to italiano, Deutsch and Bahasa Melayu. However, this is English-language Wikivoyage, and we use the name that's most used in English: see WV:Naming conventions. So no, this renaming cannot be done based on your argument. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:30, 25 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Ikan is correct; it should not be renamed. However, adding a redirect at Amazigh so that a search for that will find the article seems reasonable, so I will create that. Pashley (talk) 23:03, 25 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

https://theankler.com/p/ghosts-in-the-balcony-crowd-pleaser-letterboxd-issue-1 —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 11:54, 26 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

A review of US cinemas (movie theatres) - maybe some of these should have do listings in the cities concerned. AlasdairW (talk) 20:05, 26 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Hi all,

I've been using Wikivoyage for years, but much more as a user than contributor. For ages now I've struggled to find a way to map out things when on the go, so I decided to write an app to do just that. It's only on Android, and is called Voyage Map. You can find it here:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.okane.voyagemapper

I'd love to hear any feedback about it. For now, it's quite simple. It allows you to search near your current location, or search for a place and load articles nearby.

Once in the Map, you can click on a black pin (essentially an wikivoyage page) to get some info about the place. Then you can map the sights that are on that page. I limit it to see and do tags, as well as marker tags with type of see or do. Sights are green pins, and if you click on that, you get some info about the sight.

And that's all for now. I've got lots of ideas for improvements, but it's about finding time to do them.

Cheers, Stephen Sokratees9 (talk) 22:36, 26 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Sokratees9 Ooh, this sounds interesting. I'd like to try it but I'm an Apple user. :/ //shb (t | c | m) 00:34, 28 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

I've no idea how to develop got Apple right now, but I think I could work it out in the future Sokratees9 (talk) 22:06, 28 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

From what I know, developing on Apple is a pain (with Swift) – and their US$99/year fee to host apps on the app store is the cherry on top. //shb (t | c | m) 03:25, 29 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Since a lot of you were pretty invested in the last discussion we had on the future of Wikinews, m:Wikimedia Foundation Community Affairs Committee/Sister Projects Task Force/Results of the consultation about Wikispore and Wikinews has finally been released. It combines both Wikispore and Wikinews, but to save you some clicks, the summary for Wikinews is as follows:

Archive all editions of Wikinews, preserving their content.

The implementation (including the timeline, archival method, etc) are the responsibility of the Product & Technology department, but the process should be sensitive to local project contexts and follow inclusive, transparent processes.

The Wikimedia Foundation should support and provide resources to groups exploring new paradigms for Wikimedia news content, such as the proposed “Wikinews Pulse” centralised multilingual headline portal. It should set a fixed timetable (e.g., one year) for these pilot initiatives to demonstrate progress, after which results should be publicly reviewed and further recommendations made.

I think it's pretty safe to say that Wikinews will not exist for much longer in its current state. I suppose it was inevitable, particularly being the only project where even content 1 month old becomes irrelevant (making traditional metrics used to measure progress like number of articles irrelevant), and at least the concerns with how SPTF poorly handled this was heard.

//shb (t | c | m) 00:33, 28 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Truly sad. We'll see what the Board says. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 01:06, 28 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

I'm more sad that it had to die this way. Maybe that's just me knowing that Wikinews wouldn't have much of a future from the start, though. //shb (t | c | m) 01:15, 28 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

And there won't be any revival of my short-term stint in Bengali Wikinews Incubator, and I actually helped it grow enough to be considered as a valid project. However, due to the lack of interests to work in time-sensitive environments, and given my growing interests outside Wikimedia, I have reduced my Wikimedia activities significantly, which includes quitting the Incubator project. However, I will remain active in Commons, Wikivoyage, and Bengali Wikipedia as long as I can, as my interests in those places haven't gone yet. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 06:10, 28 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

I don't think there was ever any way that closing Wikinews would make the (few) dedicated participants happy.

There was a study among cancer patients some years ago. They rated their doctors for communication skills. The researchers then asked the cancer patients what they understood of their medical condition (e.g., whether the cancer is likely to be cured), and separately, they looked up their actual prognosis. If the patient correctly understood their realistic chance of survival, they rated the doctor as being a "bad communicator". If the patient was going to die from cancer, but they falsely believed that the opposite, then they rated the doctor as a "good communicator".

I mention this because there is no way to tell people that their project is going to die, without them thinking that the way you told them is bad. (Also, if any of your loved ones praise their oncologist for being a good communicator, then you should start planning for the funeral.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:46, 29 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Airbus issues major A320 recall, threatening global flight disruption. Do we need to say anything about this? Where? Pashley (talk) 07:55, 29 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Probably not, based on this:

'"The timing is definitely not ideal for an issue like this to arise on one of the most ubiquitous aircraft around the (U.S.) holidays," Mike Stengel of AeroDynamic Advisory said.

But due to the quick repair time, many jets can be fixed between scheduled flights or during overnight checks, he added.' Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:29, 29 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Perhaps not, but several airlines here in the Philippines have cancelled flights & people on expat Facebook groups are howling.

Reuters: Airbus A320 recall disrupts Asian travel as carriers scramble to patch software.

Guardian: Jetstar cancels 90 domestic flights across Australia after global Airbus A320 recall Pashley (talk) 09:22, 29 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

The thing I'm wondering is whether by the time a warning is added, it will have to be deleted. If there are particular places or airlines that are badly affected, and you are ready to keep on top of this, so that the warnings are removed the same day they no longer apply, go ahead and add some in relevant articles. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:07, 29 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

That aligns with my view. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:27, 29 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

My thoughts too. //shb (t | c | m) 04:30, 30 November 2025 (UTC)Reply